Fakes and Newbie's

[bill m]

Hello,

As a collector I have been worried over the last few years about all the fakes and counterfiets that are floating around. I wondered why people kept dealing with people who have been labeled as "bad news", and how they continue to keep in business. Well, after the posts about Midwest I tried to contact some of the people who stated how happy they were with there new prizes. Only one person responded and sent me a picture of a K-date which was suppose to be a Navy model, refinished with reproduction grips. After looking at the picture, the K-date is a fake. This is the 4th one I know of from these guys. I examined two in person. The thing that kinda disappoints me is that the new collectors are not spending a few dollars to buy the books, nor spending the time to read them and examine the pictures. They are not going to knowledgeable people and asking questions, getting opinions, and asking for help. Instead they are falling prey to a good line of "salesmanship" and they believe it. They state that they are going to contact an author and have their new variation added to books and data sheets. For some reason they actually think they have a rare variation that long time collectors have missed out on. The fakers are using the books and serial numbers to make there counterfiets, with property numbers and serial numbers in the correct range. Two of the Navy Lugers had Navy property numbers that were already recorded to other guns. I'm sorry, but all of these fakes, counterfiets, reproductions, and restorations really bother me at times, because very few of these craftsmen are marking there products and everyone knows that they are being peddled down the road by the next guy as originals. I know the people here on the Forum have good intentions, but everyone needs to mark there products like Thor does, and keep the next guy from hurting some new collector. There is nothing wrong with making products if they are represented for what they actually are. Without the new collectors and new shooters, our Luger collecting days are going to be short lived. We will be just a very few trading between ourselves if we do not bring in and help new collectors and shooters. Each time these crooks take a new collector, more than likely we loose him forever. We can all help rid our hobby of these crooks if we will work together and spread the word of who is messing things up. Everyone is afraid of getting involved, but unless we all get involved we are actually going to slowly destroy our own hobby. A few years ago I bought what was suppose to be a rare Luger and had it about 4 years before I showed it to anyone. It was pointed out to me that it was a fake and I was shown why. I contacted the seller, which did not want anything to do with me or the gun stating I had a 3 day inspection and this was years later. I got a lawyer, contacted the guy saying he represented the gun as being original and as issued, and we were prepared to take the guy to court, turn him in for counterfieting, and publish his name in every gun magazine around unless I was paid in full, plus expenses. I had my money in a couple of days. The point being that we do not have to take this crap, but we do have to have enough guts to go after the crooks. Just my thoughts. Sincerely, bill m

[lugerholsterrepair]

Bill, Great story! And a good opinion. One problem I see is as soon as a few collectors decide to mark ther lugers this will be discovered and replicated to the extent that a person could end up having to deny ever owning a luger that supposedly had his mark on it. My wife has always wanted me to mark my artillery boots and Double mag pouches and lanyards that I make but my reasoning is why? Someone else could simply replicate my mark and be off and running making items I might be ashamed to have my name on. Hard to say how to effectively solve this vexing problem. Jerry B

[bill m]

Hi Jerry,

This collecting is getting so complicated that I was just thinking of possible ways to help the new collectors. If someone used your mark or trademark, couldn't you sue them, or force them out of business? I'm no legal buff, but there must be some way that one could protect there work from being copied or outright forged, as others in business have the same problem.

[Thor]

Bill and Jerry, I have always thought if I make my mark vocal enough (tell as many as possible) that if a prospective buyers knows about the mark and can call me, I can look up the Luger and tell him, yes, I did the work, or Nope, I did not~ Assuming, of course, I am still around to tell the tale!

[lugerholsterrepair]

Another problem occurs to me. Ted, What if the pistol you refinished and marked was worked over again without your knowledge and what we know to be excellent work, is then a piece of crap. Then your mark says you did it. While I appreciate the effort and thought Bill M has put into this I have given it some thought myself due to the work that I do. Bill mentions the legal aspect of it all and yes I suppose if you were a large business or corporation with many items to protect it would be worth it to go to this type of legal protection. The collector who wants to protect the provenance of a particular weapon is at the mercy of those who detect his mark and replicate it and are not worrying about being sued by a collector who has two dozen Luger pistols. Another thing, the value of a Luger would not be inhanced by marking it in any permanent way. Bill, I am as interested as the next guy to discuss and eventually find an answer to this very serious threat to the hobby we all hold dear to our hearts. Talking about it will eventually lead us to an answer. I hope before it has gone too far. I have been nervous for years and have even seen one of my luger lanyards in an auction catalog. After it leaves my hands there is really no way to determine what it is without serious inspection and perhaps forensic testing. One of the reasons I have never marked say, artillery boots, is because a collector who wants the boot to complete an original artillery rig would be ticked to see my moniker all over it. Am I wrong? I don't really know and time will tell. Jerry B.

[bill m]

Hi,

I really do not know what the answer is, but I know we all need to discuss this as it is a problem and is getting bigger all the time. I know the guys on the Forum are representing there products accurately and for what they actually are, but I feel that we all know that they are showing up down the road as being originals, so I feel that all of us must take some reponsibility for our products and what is happening to them. Let's face it, you have to be an expert or you're going to be taken in this hobby. It is hard to be an expert on everything -- Lugers, finishes, straw, magazines, grips, and leather and stitching. These new guys just can't learn this stuff without a lot of help and they soon become prey for the sharks.

[Thor]

Well as far as reworks of my reworks are concerned, I do take pretty good digital photos of what they looked like when I was finished which MIGHT help some! ~Thor~

[Thor]

I have weighed the pros and cons, and decided my concsious is in better shape if I do mark them than do not! I have had a couple of folks go away when I tell them I absolutely have to mark them, they dont want me to and I know why! I do not want to be OPENLY part of a potential fraud. Even if the owner has good intentions, what happens when the gun passes on to its next owner and the story of its rework is lost? ~Thor~

Hi,

Most people think of a Patent or Trade Mark as protection.

IT IS NOT !!!, It is merely a hunting license to seek and destroy those who choose to steal your good name and profits. If you can find them and nail then down !!!

Once you serve the culprit he closes shop and moves across the street and reopens under a new name and your expenses for the protection of your rights is gone and lost.

And the cost, of locating and collecting evidence, filing in the proper court, and Having papers served, is not a small expense

Patents and Trade marks are only usefull for very large and valuable items where the culprit stands up and fights your efforts in court.

My observations.

I would ask "SCHWOB" for his input on this matter.

ViggoG

What they will do Ted.........is to simply re-work, and eliminate your mark. Which is what was done to me when I started marking the job. The more obscure placement for the marking.......the easier to remove. At one time; I used the frame strip.

[Thor]

Well Joe, you got a point there for sure! I think if they rework the gun, I would prefer to have my mark taken off, then my work and my mark will go away together which is as it should be! Thor

Mr. Dereng is quite correct regarding intellectual property law. A trademark, like a patent, does not PROTECT your work. A registered trademark gives you offensive, not defensive, rights. If infringement is made on your trademark, you may attack the offending party in court. Because that is costly you probably would want to strike a deal with someone else suing or bringing charges against the offender to add your charge to the body of charges against the person. This would increase your leverage against them. A trademark is a good thing to announce, promote, use, and distribute widely. That helps ensure you own it should you take action against someone who uses it without permission.

when I started making Luger cases, NOT to copy "original" style cases. While they would have been infinitely easier and less expensive to produce that what I am doing currently, I didn't want my work being palmed off as original either. This is why we all do excellent work, we want the credit.


So in my case (excuse the pun) I chose to create something that could never be mistaken for "original". However it could still be copied, or worse yet resold under another name. So I clearly share your concerns.


Les

AGREE 150%


Tim

[Big Norm]

I don't think that what the original discussion was concerned about was legit restoration, grips recheckering or the making of nice display cases. I think what billm is concerned about is the changing of serial numbers, altering a common military Luger to a Kreighoff or an expensive navy Luger, adding unit marks and so forth. And I agree 150% with him and the negative effect that this will have on collecting. I have no problem with Thors restoration or holsterrepairs repairing old original holsters or Hughs recheckering. But I do have a problem with the deliberate altering of a Luger to misrepresent it for profit. I think that the restoring to original condition by a talanted, professional restorer of a Luger that is destined for the scrap heap is not such a bad thing. Current law only applies if the serial number on the frame of the Luger has been altered. It is up to people like NAPCA and people on this forum to expose these fakers.


A while back, I disclosed that I had found a chamber dated 1914 Artillery Luger whose serial number was not in the serial number range that is in the books. I was surprised how much heck I caught on this forum for what I considered a noble intent. The heck was not confined to just the forum. Simpson also joined in and instead of condeming the gun, he was very interested in finding the person who had the gun. To be honest, I was down hearted at the response that I had received.


On the other hand, I was very happy to see the response by people of this forum to a seller on Ebay of a navy Lugers rear toggle. This seller was recommending the very thing I despise in counterfeitors. I think that this is what billm is really talking about. Good going BillM.

Big Norm

[Johnny Peppers]

NORM,

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but if I remember the discussion it centered on the 1914 dated LP08 that was outside the serial number range given by Jan Still. Still normally gives the low and high "observed" serial number, and his estimate of the low and the high. I certainly would not turn down a pistol that fell outside his guesstimate of the serial number range as there are extremely few Luger variations that have an exact known serial number range. The pistol would have to stand on it's own merits rather than someone's estimated serial number range.

[Big Norm]

I regard Jan Still as an authority who is bigger than me. I will still go by the book even though I have to admit that Still's book is dated. The term "observed serial numbers" bothers me a bit when it comes to a man like Stills who put his money where his mouth is. I just have this gut feeling that the term implies guess work.

Big Norm

[Johnny Peppers]

There were probably ledgers at one time that listed all the serial numbers of pistols produced by DWM or Erfurt, but they no longer exist and their information has been lost to history. We must now rely on the best information available and that is from observed surviving pistols. We know that many of the pistols themselves have been lost to history, or just have not made it into collectors circles. The best information we have is from observed pistols and those that seek out and record the existing serial numbers. I think Jan Still would be the first to tell you that he had not personally observed every serial number he uses, but he has collected serial numbers from collectors that he trusted. Although we do know where the serial numbers of the WWI pistols started we have no exact serial number of where they ended. Also we do not know where the different variations fall within the serial number ranges. The serial number ranges that Still gives are just that, a range and not an exact number.

[Orv Reichert]

Those of us that contributed to Jan Still's books gave data that was available AT THAT TIME.!!


Certainly, we have learned a lot since then...


Orv Reichert