:[ Interesting Luger Damage <img BORDER="0" src='http://boards.rennlist.com/luger/pic.gif'>

Luke · 11-30-2001, 06:49 AM

Just bought a 1917 Artillery which is in excellent mechanical condition with one exception: The rear toggle link has a peculiar scar pattern which, I suspect, could only have been produced under the following conditions:

1. The rear toggle link PIN was missing,

2. The rear toggle link had dropped down INTO the frame,

3. The gun was fired in that condition.

The scars on the link exactly match the inside of the frame.

Anyone ever see this kind of damage before?

Would appreciate your comments.

Luke

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RearToggleDamage.jpg

larry · 11-30-2001, 09:51 AM

Luke

Don't think that is firing damage. I believe it was stored in the upright position on a hard surface.

11-30-2001, 12:00 PM

More than likely resulted from firing the luger without the recoil linkage attached.

Luke · 11-30-2001, 12:17 PM

I fired the gun this morning for the first time, and everything seemed to work well.

Double checked, and the marks on the rear toggle are a precise match to the inside of the upper rear of the frame.

11-30-2001, 02:09 PM

Hi Luke.....chacked my pieces and out of 18 of them 3 have the VERY same marks, 02 Fat Barrel.06 Navy and 1918 Arty Leo

Dok · 11-30-2001, 03:26 PM

Luke · 11-30-2001, 04:06 PM

No, the scars are clearly damaged metal. I'd sure like to know what causes that and if it can occur again under some conditions.

I remember that in the 1930s Mauser added metal to the back of the frame in the area of the rear toggle pin in what is sometimes called the Mauser bump. Presumably that "bump" was to prevent this rear toggle pin from coming out during firing.

Wonder if that could be what happened here ? ? ?

John Sabato · 11-30-2001, 04:24 PM

of the upper to the frame.

I am not at home but perhaps one of you who has immediate access to a Luger could check (CAREFULLY so you don't damage your gun) that if a complete upper is attempted to be assembled to the lower with the toggle in the up position instead of closed, Doesen't the tail of the toggle run into the center of the rear frame in just such a manner to create these marks when it is brought fully to the rear?

When properly assembled (with the toggle in the down position) this kind of damage is not possible. But since this end of the toggle overrides the center frame during the firing sequence (with the toggle in the up position), it stands to reason that it would run into the rear center frame if assembly is attempted in this manner.

It would be especially possible if the toggle did not have the rear axle installed and was in the "UP" position when it was brought to the rear... I think that would account for the scratches...

Can anyone confirm my recollection of the engineering relationships of the parts?

regards,

John Sabato

12-01-2001, 02:47 AM

If you are putting a Luger together and you have the "top half" of the Luger sliding back on the frame and the coupling link DOES NOT "catch" onto the recoil lever and you continue to pull the whole thing back by the toggle knobs....THEN you'll get that famous scratch (or set of scratches) on the rear toggle from the vertical protrusions at the rear of the frame ..... EVERY TIME.

Johnny Peppers · 12-01-2001, 11:11 AM

Exactly. If the toggle assembly remains in the battery position nothing happens, but if the toggle knobs are raised the rear toggle link strikes the raised part of the rear of the frame.

Luke · 12-01-2001, 03:23 PM

Shadow & Johnny,

After trying it, gingerly, on my Luger, it appears that this was probably the mistake which caused the rear toggle damage. From Leo's comment, above, where he states that 3 of 18 Lugers of his have the same damage marks, one would suspect that this was not an uncommon mistake . . . probably an easy mistake to make in a trench warefare environment.

Thanks for your comments, all.

Luke

Johnny Peppers · 12-01-2001, 03:48 PM

The damage was probably done many years after the weapon left the trenches. A very high percentage of Lugers show scratches where some type of tool was used in an attempt to get the takedown lever to move. Some are even bent down in an attempt to move them.

12-01-2001, 04:40 PM

Johnny is right....the people in the trenches could take down thier weapon in the dark, it is the "novice" who does not know how to take the weapon down that causes the damage.........Leo

11-30-2001, 06:49 AM	#1
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	:[ Interesting Luger Damage Just bought a 1917 Artillery which is in excellent mechanical condition with one exception: The rear toggle link has a peculiar scar pattern which, I suspect, could only have been produced under the following conditions: 1. The rear toggle link PIN was missing, 2. The rear toggle link had dropped down INTO the frame, 3. The gun was fired in that condition. The scars on the link exactly match the inside of the frame. Anyone ever see this kind of damage before? Would appreciate your comments. Luke http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RearToggleDamage.jpg

11-30-2001, 09:51 AM	#2
larry User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 106 Thanks: 26 Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts	Re: :[ Interesting Luger Damage Luke Don't think that is firing damage. I believe it was stored in the upright position on a hard surface.

11-30-2001, 12:00 PM	#3
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: :[ Interesting Luger Damage More than likely resulted from firing the luger without the recoil linkage attached.

11-30-2001, 12:17 PM	#4
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Tom: Does that mean the rear link pin was ou I fired the gun this morning for the first time, and everything seemed to work well. Double checked, and the marks on the rear toggle are a precise match to the inside of the upper rear of the frame.

11-30-2001, 02:09 PM	#5
Leo Guest Posts: n/a	Re: :[ Interesting Luger Damage Hi Luke.....chacked my pieces and out of 18 of them 3 have the VERY same marks, 02 Fat Barrel.06 Navy and 1918 Arty Leo

11-30-2001, 03:26 PM	#6
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Manufacturing high spots maybe?? (EOM)

11-30-2001, 04:06 PM	#7
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Manufacturing Spots ??? No, the scars are clearly damaged metal. I'd sure like to know what causes that and if it can occur again under some conditions. I remember that in the 1930s Mauser added metal to the back of the frame in the area of the rear toggle pin in what is sometimes called the Mauser bump. Presumably that "bump" was to prevent this rear toggle pin from coming out during firing. Wonder if that could be what happened here ? ? ?

11-30-2001, 04:24 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I think it is from improper and carele of the upper to the frame. I am not at home but perhaps one of you who has immediate access to a Luger could check (CAREFULLY so you don't damage your gun) that if a complete upper is attempted to be assembled to the lower with the toggle in the up position instead of closed, Doesen't the tail of the toggle run into the center of the rear frame in just such a manner to create these marks when it is brought fully to the rear? When properly assembled (with the toggle in the down position) this kind of damage is not possible. But since this end of the toggle overrides the center frame during the firing sequence (with the toggle in the up position), it stands to reason that it would run into the rear center frame if assembly is attempted in this manner. It would be especially possible if the toggle did not have the rear axle installed and was in the "UP" position when it was brought to the rear... I think that would account for the scratches... Can anyone confirm my recollection of the engineering relationships of the parts? regards, John Sabato

12-01-2001, 02:47 AM	#9
The Shadow Knows Guest Posts: n/a	the real scoop! If you are putting a Luger together and you have the "top half" of the Luger sliding back on the frame and the coupling link DOES NOT "catch" onto the recoil lever and you continue to pull the whole thing back by the toggle knobs....THEN you'll get that famous scratch (or set of scratches) on the rear toggle from the vertical protrusions at the rear of the frame ..... EVERY TIME.

12-01-2001, 11:11 AM	#10
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: the real scoop! Exactly. If the toggle assembly remains in the battery position nothing happens, but if the toggle knobs are raised the rear toggle link strikes the raised part of the rear of the frame.

12-01-2001, 03:23 PM	#11
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks for your comments, I think this is the answer. Shadow & Johnny, After trying it, gingerly, on my Luger, it appears that this was probably the mistake which caused the rear toggle damage. From Leo's comment, above, where he states that 3 of 18 Lugers of his have the same damage marks, one would suspect that this was not an uncommon mistake . . . probably an easy mistake to make in a trench warefare environment. Thanks for your comments, all. Luke

12-01-2001, 03:48 PM	#12
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Thanks for your comments, I think this is the answer. The damage was probably done many years after the weapon left the trenches. A very high percentage of Lugers show scratches where some type of tool was used in an attempt to get the takedown lever to move. Some are even bent down in an attempt to move them.

12-01-2001, 04:40 PM	#13
Leo Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Thanks for your comments, I think this is the answer. Johnny is right....the people in the trenches could take down thier weapon in the dark, it is the "novice" who does not know how to take the weapon down that causes the damage.........Leo