:[ Interesting Luger Damage
 

Just bought a 1917 Artillery which is in excellent mechanical condition with one exception: The rear toggle link has a peculiar scar pattern which, I suspect, could only have been produced under the following conditions:

1. The rear toggle link PIN was missing,

2. The rear toggle link had dropped down INTO the frame,

3. The gun was fired in that condition.


The scars on the link exactly match the inside of the frame.


Anyone ever see this kind of damage before?


Would appreciate your comments.


Luke






http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RearToggleDamage.jpg

Re: :[ Interesting Luger Damage
 

Luke

Don't think that is firing damage. I believe it was stored in the upright position on a hard surface.

Re: :[ Interesting Luger Damage
 

More than likely resulted from firing the luger without the recoil linkage attached.

Tom: Does that mean the rear link pin was ou
 

I fired the gun this morning for the first time, and everything seemed to work well.


Double checked, and the marks on the rear toggle are a precise match to the inside of the upper rear of the frame.

Re: :[ Interesting Luger Damage
 

Hi Luke.....chacked my pieces and out of 18 of them 3 have the VERY same marks, 02 Fat Barrel.06 Navy and 1918 Arty Leo

Manufacturing high spots maybe?? (EOM)
 

Manufacturing Spots ???
 

No, the scars are clearly damaged metal. I'd sure like to know what causes that and if it can occur again under some conditions.


I remember that in the 1930s Mauser added metal to the back of the frame in the area of the rear toggle pin in what is sometimes called the Mauser bump. Presumably that "bump" was to prevent this rear toggle pin from coming out during firing.


Wonder if that could be what happened here ? ? ?

I think it is from improper and carele
 

of the upper to the frame.


I am not at home but perhaps one of you who has immediate access to a Luger could check (CAREFULLY so you don't damage your gun) that if a complete upper is attempted to be assembled to the lower with the toggle in the up position instead of closed, Doesen't the tail of the toggle run into the center of the rear frame in just such a manner to create these marks when it is brought fully to the rear?


When properly assembled (with the toggle in the down position) this kind of damage is not possible. But since this end of the toggle overrides the center frame during the firing sequence (with the toggle in the up position), it stands to reason that it would run into the rear center frame if assembly is attempted in this manner.


It would be especially possible if the toggle did not have the rear axle installed and was in the "UP" position when it was brought to the rear... I think that would account for the scratches...


Can anyone confirm my recollection of the engineering relationships of the parts?


regards,


John Sabato

the real scoop!
 

If you are putting a Luger together and you have the "top half" of the Luger sliding back on the frame and the coupling link DOES NOT "catch" onto the recoil lever and you continue to pull the whole thing back by the toggle knobs....THEN you'll get that famous scratch (or set of scratches) on the rear toggle from the vertical protrusions at the rear of the frame ..... EVERY TIME.

Re: the real scoop!
 

Exactly. If the toggle assembly remains in the battery position nothing happens, but if the toggle knobs are raised the rear toggle link strikes the raised part of the rear of the frame.

Thanks for your comments, I think this is the answer.
 

Shadow & Johnny,

After trying it, gingerly, on my Luger, it appears that this was probably the mistake which caused the rear toggle damage. From Leo's comment, above, where he states that 3 of 18 Lugers of his have the same damage marks, one would suspect that this was not an uncommon mistake . . . probably an easy mistake to make in a trench warefare environment.

Thanks for your comments, all.

Luke

Re: Thanks for your comments, I think this is the answer.
 

The damage was probably done many years after the weapon left the trenches. A very high percentage of Lugers show scratches where some type of tool was used in an attempt to get the takedown lever to move. Some are even bent down in an attempt to move them.

Re: Thanks for your comments, I think this is the answer.
 

Johnny is right....the people in the trenches could take down thier weapon in the dark, it is the "novice" who does not know how to take the weapon down that causes the damage.........Leo