Your opinion on this Artillery

alvin · 02-25-2009, 08:25 PM

Like this one. I did not see any hole, but would like to ask experts' 2nd opinion. Any comments is welcome.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=123421779

And fair market price ? TIA

alvin · 02-26-2009, 08:44 AM

Ed, you're selling many Lugers, you must know the market up to date. If others are not tracking. Please.

Edward Tinker · 02-26-2009, 08:44 AM

Do folks realize why a seller doesn't like to give out the reserve?

Because instead of bidding $1200 like they were thinking, they think, oh, $1400 that is too high. Or, well, I will wait until its about over and then they either bid and either bid too low or "forget" to bid at all! I am amazed when I see 15 folks watching an auction and the holster goes for $135....

I have sold hundreds of items on ebay and the trick is to have them ending on Friday or Saturday night between 6 Pm pacific and 9 PM (give or take an hour); have the item with a low starting point and get 15 or more people watching your item.

Still, I have had items sell for $60 that a previous week should have been worth $150 and no reserve means that I am out $90; and starting it at $150, well, that just doesn't seem to get folks bidding....

Example: If they 'watch" the item, then they keep coming back and may decide to bid. By passing it because Tuesday it seemed high to them and then Wednesday their brother pays him the $200 he owes him, well, he can afford the $150. But starting it at $25, he immediatly bids and then the next guy bids till it gets to $125; then at auction end, 3 folks are bidding.

That is an auction from the sellers perspective...

Ed

Edward Tinker · 02-26-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Ed, you're selling many Lugers, you must know the market up to date. If others are not tracking. Please.

I looked at it, as you said, i am "good" at other lugers and guns, but best and spot on on what I collect, police and Simson's....

However, looks like a nice artillery, although NOT 97% in my opinion, its got too many bangs and scratches for me to call it 97% bluing, which may be wrong, but I count those issues against a luger.

And whats with this side view around the safety, what happened there???

alanint · 02-26-2009, 09:38 AM

someone tried to scratch out the paint, thinking it wan't original?

Ron Smith · 02-26-2009, 09:50 AM

I would call it 85-90% if it were mine. The scratches(?)around the safety would bring it down a bit IMO. Maybe the safety got stuck and someone used a screw driver to pry on it? The SN halo is still present on the barrel, so it doesn't appear to have been completely refinished.

Ron

Merick · 02-26-2009, 10:09 AM

I'll stand up and throw the "refinished" flag. Here's why I think so; mainly the safety area is just not right, I would be stunned if a DWM left the factory with those scratches, and the line where the safety slides is just too faint. Also the "DWM" itself looks washed out to me. Other areas look right, so if you don't believe me then that is fine, you can't really tell unless you hold it in your hand. But I have re -rust blued a few things (not lugers) on my own so I know what mistakes look like.

cma22inc · 02-26-2009, 11:01 AM

If it is indeed been messed with what would be a fair price?

Ron Smith · 02-26-2009, 11:09 AM

Matt,

All things considered. Questionable finish, scratches, rough (sanding?)spots on the frame & side plate and the thin DWM logo. I wouldn't go more than $1500 on it as a "shooter". This is just my opinion, others may have different thoughts. It's not terrible, but very questionable.

Ron

lugerholsterrepair · 02-26-2009, 11:09 AM

I agree with Herr Merick..the top of the toggle looks washed out in the DWM & serial. This is the roughest machining I have ever seen on a 1917. That and the safety area Ed shows and this is a less than desirable pistol for me. Matching mag though..Finish looks blotchy too.

Jerry Burney

DavidJayUden · 02-26-2009, 12:54 PM

Should we be seeing the M suffix on the mag?
DJU

George Anderson · 02-26-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Should we be seeing the M suffix on the mag?
DJU

Absolutely.

Vlim · 02-26-2009, 04:48 PM

imho the scratches on the frame ears are pretty normal for 1917 DWM's. Most, if not all, unmessed with 1917 DWM's show scratch marks on that area, some more than others. 1917 was the peak year in DWM pistol production and some final finesse in the finishing department was sacrificed as a result.

Sideplate looks redone, however. I think this gun has simpy been touched up here and there.

sheepherder · 02-26-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I have sold hundreds of items on ebay and the trick is to have them ending on Friday or Saturday night between 6 Pm pacific and 9 PM (give or take an hour)...

Interesting perspective; I guess it depends on the demographic you are aiming at...

I schedule my auction endings for 10:00 PM EST, weekdays...This lets the west coasters slog their way through traffic and get home and eat and then check their email/auctions...and at the same time, east coasters are still active and have not gone to bed yet...and both coasts are not out watching a movie, or having a Friday fish fry, or an evening with friends...

alvin · 02-26-2009, 08:05 PM

This type of tool scratches on ear is probably period. The last letter "T" still has some residue white stuff left. Less desirable I would agree. The missing "m" on magazine is unexplainable. It's supposed to be a replacement.

I did not see anything wrong with the side plate nor toggle though. Why would you think those two parts being suspicious?

Merick · 02-26-2009, 11:42 PM

When the marks are original the metal gets peened up around the stamp just slightly. When it gets refinished it gets sanded during preparation and that knocks that slight rise down flat, even though you can still see the stamp.

The wear line under the safety is a pretty easy to spot indicator that it has been refinished. There is no way that this gun made it from 1917 to now without wearing through the bluing between gesichert and not gesichert.

Here is a sticky on spotting refinishes in case you haven't seen it.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=17917

They are small differences but after you look at enough examples you get the idea. Better yet refinish a "shooter" shotgun or 22 and you will learn what it does first hand. It never hurts to ask if you have doubts. I would agree with Vlim that it has probably been touched up here and there, as some parts look ok, while others are a bit off.

alvin · 02-27-2009, 02:58 AM

The ear wearing arc between two safety positions is there. From the general apperance, this gun has not been shot or handled a lot but has been living in relatively humid env for long time and the arc is not very silver bright, and red background makes thing "bluer" in general. Pushing the safety up and down 10 times would erase the light patina on top of the "arc".

Area touch up is hard to id from photo. If you think there are some, could you pin point the area? For example, pix 10 might show sideplate being a little bit darker, but pix 9 from slight different angle shows side plate color being OK.

===

Assuming it deserves hand-on inspection, what will be the number? (a 85% 1917 with replaced magazine)

lugerholsterrepair · 02-27-2009, 11:05 AM

One thing among others that disturbes me about this pistol is the lack of wear on the gripstrap. There should be some wear here and the photo dosen't show any.

Jerry Burney

Ron Smith · 02-27-2009, 11:16 AM

"Most, if not all, unmessed with 1917 DWM's show scratch marks on that area, some more than others. 1917 was the peak year in DWM pistol production and some final finesse in the finishing department was sacrificed as a result."

Gerben,

I had never really noticed this before. I just check all of my 1917s and they do show light to moderate scratches, in much the same pattern.

Ron

Vlim · 02-27-2009, 07:17 PM

Ron,

Nice, isn't it? It's a good and little known feature that identifies 1917 frames pretty well.

Alvin: Normally the side plates lose their blueing a lot faster than the rest of the gun does, so seeing a neatly blued side plate on this LP08 makes me a little suspicious. The numbers on the plate are a bit shallow, also.

02-25-2009, 08:25 PM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Your opinion on this Artillery Like this one. I did not see any hole, but would like to ask experts' 2nd opinion. Any comments is welcome. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=123421779 And fair market price ? TIA

02-26-2009, 08:44 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Do folks realize why a seller doesn't like to give out the reserve? Because instead of bidding $1200 like they were thinking, they think, oh, $1400 that is too high. Or, well, I will wait until its about over and then they either bid and either bid too low or "forget" to bid at all! I am amazed when I see 15 folks watching an auction and the holster goes for $135.... I have sold hundreds of items on ebay and the trick is to have them ending on Friday or Saturday night between 6 Pm pacific and 9 PM (give or take an hour); have the item with a low starting point and get 15 or more people watching your item. Still, I have had items sell for $60 that a previous week should have been worth $150 and no reserve means that I am out $90; and starting it at $150, well, that just doesn't seem to get folks bidding.... Example: If they 'watch" the item, then they keep coming back and may decide to bid. By passing it because Tuesday it seemed high to them and then Wednesday their brother pays him the $200 he owes him, well, he can afford the $150. But starting it at $25, he immediatly bids and then the next guy bids till it gets to $125; then at auction end, 3 folks are bidding. That is an auction from the sellers perspective... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-26-2009, 09:50 AM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I would call it 85-90% if it were mine. The scratches(?)around the safety would bring it down a bit IMO. Maybe the safety got stuck and someone used a screw driver to pry on it? The SN halo is still present on the barrel, so it doesn't appear to have been completely refinished. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

02-26-2009, 11:09 AM	#9
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Matt, All things considered. Questionable finish, scratches, rough (sanding?)spots on the frame & side plate and the thin DWM logo. I wouldn't go more than $1500 on it as a "shooter". This is just my opinion, others may have different thoughts. It's not terrible, but very questionable. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

02-26-2009, 11:09 AM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	I agree with Herr Merick..the top of the toggle looks washed out in the DWM & serial. This is the roughest machining I have ever seen on a 1917. That and the safety area Ed shows and this is a less than desirable pistol for me. Matching mag though..Finish looks blotchy too. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-26-2009, 09:38 AM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	someone tried to scratch out the paint, thinking it wan't original?

02-26-2009, 10:09 AM	#7
Merick User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 32 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I'll stand up and throw the "refinished" flag. Here's why I think so; mainly the safety area is just not right, I would be stunned if a DWM left the factory with those scratches, and the line where the safety slides is just too faint. Also the "DWM" itself looks washed out to me. Other areas look right, so if you don't believe me then that is fine, you can't really tell unless you hold it in your hand. But I have re -rust blued a few things (not lugers) on my own so I know what mistakes look like.

02-26-2009, 11:01 AM	#8
cma22inc User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Tampa Bay FL Posts: 93 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	If it is indeed been messed with what would be a fair price?

02-26-2009, 12:54 PM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Should we be seeing the M suffix on the mag? DJU

02-26-2009, 04:48 PM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	imho the scratches on the frame ears are pretty normal for 1917 DWM's. Most, if not all, unmessed with 1917 DWM's show scratch marks on that area, some more than others. 1917 was the peak year in DWM pistol production and some final finesse in the finishing department was sacrificed as a result. Sideplate looks redone, however. I think this gun has simpy been touched up here and there.

02-26-2009, 08:05 PM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	This type of tool scratches on ear is probably period. The last letter "T" still has some residue white stuff left. Less desirable I would agree. The missing "m" on magazine is unexplainable. It's supposed to be a replacement. I did not see anything wrong with the side plate nor toggle though. Why would you think those two parts being suspicious?

02-26-2009, 11:42 PM	#16
Merick User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 32 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	When the marks are original the metal gets peened up around the stamp just slightly. When it gets refinished it gets sanded during preparation and that knocks that slight rise down flat, even though you can still see the stamp. The wear line under the safety is a pretty easy to spot indicator that it has been refinished. There is no way that this gun made it from 1917 to now without wearing through the bluing between gesichert and not gesichert. Here is a sticky on spotting refinishes in case you haven't seen it. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=17917 They are small differences but after you look at enough examples you get the idea. Better yet refinish a "shooter" shotgun or 22 and you will learn what it does first hand. It never hurts to ask if you have doubts. I would agree with Vlim that it has probably been touched up here and there, as some parts look ok, while others are a bit off.

02-27-2009, 02:58 AM	#17
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The ear wearing arc between two safety positions is there. From the general apperance, this gun has not been shot or handled a lot but has been living in relatively humid env for long time and the arc is not very silver bright, and red background makes thing "bluer" in general. Pushing the safety up and down 10 times would erase the light patina on top of the "arc". Area touch up is hard to id from photo. If you think there are some, could you pin point the area? For example, pix 10 might show sideplate being a little bit darker, but pix 9 from slight different angle shows side plate color being OK. === Assuming it deserves hand-on inspection, what will be the number? (a 85% 1917 with replaced magazine) Last edited by alvin; 02-27-2009 at 06:35 AM.

02-27-2009, 11:05 AM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	One thing among others that disturbes me about this pistol is the lack of wear on the gripstrap. There should be some wear here and the photo dosen't show any. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-27-2009, 11:16 AM	#19
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	"Most, if not all, unmessed with 1917 DWM's show scratch marks on that area, some more than others. 1917 was the peak year in DWM pistol production and some final finesse in the finishing department was sacrificed as a result." Gerben, I had never really noticed this before. I just check all of my 1917s and they do show light to moderate scratches, in much the same pattern. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

02-27-2009, 07:17 PM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Ron, Nice, isn't it? It's a good and little known feature that identifies 1917 frames pretty well. Alvin: Normally the side plates lose their blueing a lot faster than the rest of the gun does, so seeing a neatly blued side plate on this LP08 makes me a little suspicious. The numbers on the plate are a bit shallow, also.