A new guy question

VN Vet · 01-04-2009, 07:43 PM

I just purchase a very nice (not perfect) 9mm 100mm barrel 1915 DWM with a two digit serial number with regimental marks.

I have read that early model 1915 models have no hold back. Is this true or does mine have a broken spring? It seems to operate fine otherwise. Must you hold back the battery to remove the action? Any other comments?

When I figure out to post pctures, I will. It is a nice firearm.

Ron Smith · 01-04-2009, 08:22 PM

Welcome to the forum.

A 1915 should have a hold open. It is actvated by the magazine, so the magazine has to be fully inserted before the toggle will lock back.

Ron

Ron Wood · 01-04-2009, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Must you hold back the battery to remove the action?

VN Vet,
If I understand your question, the answer is yes. To disassemble the receiver from the frame, you must "hold back" the barrel/receiver group so that you can turn the locking bolt down, remove the side plate and slide the receiver forward off of the frame. The easiest way for a beginner to hold back the barrel/reciever is press the muzzle against a solid surface until the receiver moves fully to the rear (about 1/4") and rotate the locking bolt down. This is of course done with an UNLOADED gun and the magazine removed.

Also, the holdopen only works when the magazine is empty.

lugerholsterrepair · 01-04-2009, 11:49 PM

Ron, In another thread I was discussing this very same thing and came to the conclusion that it is possible to swivel down the locking bolt without pushing the cannon back. At least it was on one pistol I tried it on. I have always done it by pushing the muzzle on a table like you say but ...have you ever tried it without pushing the pistol out of battery?
If I get time I will try it on another Luger...
OK..I thought I knew a lot about the Luger but you can still learn ..The locking bolt, if not damaged is blocked from turning by the stud on the bottom of the barrel. When pushed back out of battery it is released to turn downwards.
BUT! Dosen't this mean that during fireing the locking bolt could be unlocked on each cycle? The window would be brief but it is there...

Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 01-05-2009, 01:43 AM

Jerry,
That is why there is a spring detent on the bottom of the locking bolt. If the spring and bolt are in good condition, the bolt is locked in position independent of the receiver lug. If the spring is absent or the spring and/or bolt is excessively worn, the bolt can rotate. You are right, it can happen during firing. Folks have reported their sideplate falling off during firing and the only way that can happen is if the bolt was loose enough to rotate by itself.
As you have found out, you can't rotate the bolt unless the receiver is out of battery. I have seen far too many otherwise near mint guns with the frame and locking bolt scarred up because some idiot didn't know how to disassemble a Luger and used a screwdriver to try to turn the bolt

Lugerdoc · 01-05-2009, 10:29 AM

Ron, Good explanation. It alway bothers me that quite a few long time luger owners don't know the proper way to Take Down or reassemble their lugers. I wish that I had a camera or scanner, to put up the illustrations of the recommended German army mehtods. IMHO, the easiest TD method is to hold back the toggle on an empty mag so that it is out of battery, when turning down the TD lever and removing the side plate. To reassemble, hold top half upside down, while pushing up on toggle with one finger, then slide on inverted frame until the recoil assy is over the connecting "S" link, then turn right side up and hold back out of battery with one hand, while installing side plate & locking TD lever with the other. Lugerdoc

Dwight Gruber · 01-05-2009, 08:37 PM

Jerry,

It is quite exciting to have the sideplate fly off in the middle of a shooting session--particularly if it lands in front of the firing line (providing you can find it at all)!! This can happen with a weak or broken takedown lever spring; occasionally one runs into a Luger with the spring missing altogether.

--Dwight

MCNJ · 01-06-2009, 10:59 AM

Guys...I have been reading this post over and over and am a bit confused. I have been learning about my recent 1st gun...which still has not been fired yet. I just got over the s-link issue last week...
I have noticed on mine ( but did not give it too much thought ) that the swivel locking bolt is a bit loose. It does not really click into place, just stays there. I had looked at it and it looked like it rolled under the barrel....I thought it might have been just a bit of wear but do not remember seeing a spring there.
With the comment about a broken or even missing take down lever spring.....I am a bit concerned now. Is there a parts diagram on site? it is a 1918 erfurt
Mike

alanint · 01-06-2009, 11:31 AM

the spring is really a small bent wire that is incorporated into the pistol's frame and is located directly under the takedown lever when it is in position within the frame. You have to remove the takedown lever from the frame to actually see this "spring" by looking into the opening in the frame left by the vacated TD lever.
The spring is "L" shaped and the small leg is anchored into the frame on the left side of the pistol.
The end of this leg is the small nub that is usually slightly protruding from the frame just in front of the trigger guard. If you see no nub protruding or if the small hole in the frame forward of the trigger guard seems to contain nothing then it is likely that you are missing your takedown lever spring.

MCNJ · 01-06-2009, 11:39 AM

alanint,
Thanks.........I am looking at it now. It appears to be intact.

Appreciate it........

alanint · 01-06-2009, 11:58 AM

My pleasure!
You can remove the spring from the frame my pushing on the exposed nub of the shorter leg with a punch or a paperclip end.
Do this while holding the frame upside down over a towel or other medium which will prevent the loose spring from bouncing away.
Clean the spring channet and the spring itself of oil and debris, which may be affecting its ability to properly hold the TD lever in place.
The TD levers often have some play and as long as the lever will not drop out of the frame of its own accord when you hold and shake the frame lever down you should be ok.
Luger Doc has lever springs should you wish to upgrade your existing spring

VN Vet · 01-06-2009, 01:01 PM

Thanks to all. Pushing the muzzle downward on a non maring surface works for me.

alanint · 01-06-2009, 02:09 PM

This will horrify some forum members, but I disassemble my Lugers thus:
Make sure the gun is REALLY unloaded
With the gun in your right hand, press muzzle against your left outstretched palm, the palm pushing the muzzle inward, while simultaneously rotating the takedown lever with your right thumb. Release pressure on the muzzle and the gun is ready to have the side plate removed and broken down.
The reason I do it this way is that I have seen too many guns slip on "non-marring" surfaces and end up with scratched muzzles or barrels, if not altogether dropped in the process. By cupping your left palm while applying pressure on the muzzle you make it virtually impossible for the gun to slip or go anywhere during the take-down process.
I know some people may state that this is physically uncomfortable but I am still young enough to not mind the wear and tear on my palm!

MCNJ · 01-06-2009, 02:46 PM

Alanint,
I see what your saying. But, as soon as I lock the breech open, any pressure on the takedown lever is relieved and is free to turn. I don not have to put any pressure pushing on the barrel.

Is that a signal of wear someplace?

Ron Wood · 01-06-2009, 03:12 PM

MCNJ
There is no wear on your Luger. When you lock the breech open (using an empty magazine and the holdopen) you have taken the receiver out of battery just as if you had pushed on the barrel. (You are using the procedure posted by Lugerdoc) It is just a bit more involved because after you have rotated the takedown lever you then have to drop the magazine while holding back on the toggles to allow the holdopen to release and then slide the receiver off the frame.

With the gun UNLOADED and the magazine out of the gun, us oldtimers usually just use our right hand to wrap our thumb under the rear of the frame with our fingers over the top of the toggle knobs and squeeze...this draws back the barrel/reciever group, then rotate down the takedown lever with our left hand. Quick and easy and you aren't going to drop anything or scratch the barrel.

alanint · 01-06-2009, 03:16 PM

No, this is normal. I do not lock the breech open, but keep it closed when dissassembling. This will prevent the entire upper receiver from potentially flying forward and the side plate flying off once you turn the TD lever down.
Try my procedure again with the toggle closed and you should see that the toggle must be pushed back slightly in order to get the lever to turn down. Then the entire upper cannon can be gently slid off the frame

Edward Tinker · 01-06-2009, 03:24 PM

There are about 5 ways to take down a luger. I don't use a table usually, I do like I did the 45, I push it on my leg, turn down the TD and it comes off, you know, old habits, blah, blah

The way Ron is talking about seems to be the way a lot of folks who know their stuff do it; they use one hand for disassembly.

Tom, incongruous...

Quote:

It alway bothers me that quite a few long time luger owners don't know the proper way to Take Down or reassemble their lugers.

~~smiling~~ You get onto folks for not knowing how to disassemble, yet refuse to get a computer or digital camera. That is VERY old school on a computer based forum

Seriously Tom, especially with the computer, you don't know how much easier all this would be.

And when folks insist on dial up, wow..... like they say, once on broadband (cable / DSL, etc) then never again on dial up.... I understand if in the middle of no where (I have lived there), or can't afford it, I understand. But to refuse cuz it costs a bit, well, its amazing how fast everything is when you switch

Ed

Ingvarg · 01-06-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

MCNJ
With the gun UNLOADED and the magazine out of the gun, us oldtimers usually just use our right hand to wrap our thumb under the rear of the frame with our fingers over the top of the toggle knobs and squeeze...this draws back the barrel/reciever group, then rotate down the takedown lever with our left hand. Quick and easy and you aren't going to drop anything or scratch the barrel.

Picture tells more than 1000 words

MCNJ · 01-06-2009, 04:01 PM

Thanks guys...........I will try each of your methods to find what seems easiest...lol
But I am glad to hear that what I saw was not wear!

Really appreciate it! Range in town is open Thursday. I will see how it works out.........The last thing I have to do is center the front sight.....it is way off to the left. ( hopefully the past owner did not set it there for a reason)
I assume that light tapping with a wooden peg will do it???

alanint · 01-06-2009, 04:07 PM

I suggest you leave the front site where it is until you shoot the gun. If it is dead on at this setting you will have saved the gun an unecessary pounding.
Sights are rarely messed with after they leave the factory since they are set dead on at manufacture and this could mean off center. Try it first. You can always go back and adjust it
Are the staking marks on the front sight lined up? If so, all the more reason to not adjust it.

01-04-2009, 07:43 PM	#1
VN Vet User Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 43 Thanks: 7 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	A new guy question I just purchase a very nice (not perfect) 9mm 100mm barrel 1915 DWM with a two digit serial number with regimental marks. I have read that early model 1915 models have no hold back. Is this true or does mine have a broken spring? It seems to operate fine otherwise. Must you hold back the battery to remove the action? Any other comments? When I figure out to post pctures, I will. It is a nice firearm.

01-04-2009, 08:22 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Welcome to the forum. A 1915 should have a hold open. It is actvated by the magazine, so the magazine has to be fully inserted before the toggle will lock back. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-04-2009, 11:49 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Ron, In another thread I was discussing this very same thing and came to the conclusion that it is possible to swivel down the locking bolt without pushing the cannon back. At least it was on one pistol I tried it on. I have always done it by pushing the muzzle on a table like you say but ...have you ever tried it without pushing the pistol out of battery? If I get time I will try it on another Luger... OK..I thought I knew a lot about the Luger but you can still learn ..The locking bolt, if not damaged is blocked from turning by the stud on the bottom of the barrel. When pushed back out of battery it is released to turn downwards. BUT! Dosen't this mean that during fireing the locking bolt could be unlocked on each cycle? The window would be brief but it is there... Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-05-2009, 01:43 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Jerry, That is why there is a spring detent on the bottom of the locking bolt. If the spring and bolt are in good condition, the bolt is locked in position independent of the receiver lug. If the spring is absent or the spring and/or bolt is excessively worn, the bolt can rotate. You are right, it can happen during firing. Folks have reported their sideplate falling off during firing and the only way that can happen is if the bolt was loose enough to rotate by itself. As you have found out, you can't rotate the bolt unless the receiver is out of battery. I have seen far too many otherwise near mint guns with the frame and locking bolt scarred up because some idiot didn't know how to disassemble a Luger and used a screwdriver to try to turn the bolt __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 01-06-2009 at 12:04 AM.

01-05-2009, 10:29 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Ron, Good explanation. It alway bothers me that quite a few long time luger owners don't know the proper way to Take Down or reassemble their lugers. I wish that I had a camera or scanner, to put up the illustrations of the recommended German army mehtods. IMHO, the easiest TD method is to hold back the toggle on an empty mag so that it is out of battery, when turning down the TD lever and removing the side plate. To reassemble, hold top half upside down, while pushing up on toggle with one finger, then slide on inverted frame until the recoil assy is over the connecting "S" link, then turn right side up and hold back out of battery with one hand, while installing side plate & locking TD lever with the other. Lugerdoc __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-05-2009, 08:37 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Jerry, It is quite exciting to have the sideplate fly off in the middle of a shooting session--particularly if it lands in front of the firing line (providing you can find it at all)!! This can happen with a weak or broken takedown lever spring; occasionally one runs into a Luger with the spring missing altogether. --Dwight

01-06-2009, 10:59 AM	#8
MCNJ User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NJ USA Posts: 62 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Guys...I have been reading this post over and over and am a bit confused. I have been learning about my recent 1st gun...which still has not been fired yet. I just got over the s-link issue last week... I have noticed on mine ( but did not give it too much thought ) that the swivel locking bolt is a bit loose. It does not really click into place, just stays there. I had looked at it and it looked like it rolled under the barrel....I thought it might have been just a bit of wear but do not remember seeing a spring there. With the comment about a broken or even missing take down lever spring.....I am a bit concerned now. Is there a parts diagram on site? it is a 1918 erfurt Mike

01-06-2009, 11:31 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	the spring is really a small bent wire that is incorporated into the pistol's frame and is located directly under the takedown lever when it is in position within the frame. You have to remove the takedown lever from the frame to actually see this "spring" by looking into the opening in the frame left by the vacated TD lever. The spring is "L" shaped and the small leg is anchored into the frame on the left side of the pistol. The end of this leg is the small nub that is usually slightly protruding from the frame just in front of the trigger guard. If you see no nub protruding or if the small hole in the frame forward of the trigger guard seems to contain nothing then it is likely that you are missing your takedown lever spring.

01-06-2009, 11:39 AM	#10
MCNJ User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NJ USA Posts: 62 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	alanint, Thanks.........I am looking at it now. It appears to be intact. Appreciate it........

01-06-2009, 11:58 AM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	My pleasure! You can remove the spring from the frame my pushing on the exposed nub of the shorter leg with a punch or a paperclip end. Do this while holding the frame upside down over a towel or other medium which will prevent the loose spring from bouncing away. Clean the spring channet and the spring itself of oil and debris, which may be affecting its ability to properly hold the TD lever in place. The TD levers often have some play and as long as the lever will not drop out of the frame of its own accord when you hold and shake the frame lever down you should be ok. Luger Doc has lever springs should you wish to upgrade your existing spring

01-06-2009, 01:01 PM	#12
VN Vet User Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 43 Thanks: 7 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks to all. Pushing the muzzle downward on a non maring surface works for me.

01-06-2009, 02:09 PM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	This will horrify some forum members, but I disassemble my Lugers thus: Make sure the gun is REALLY unloaded With the gun in your right hand, press muzzle against your left outstretched palm, the palm pushing the muzzle inward, while simultaneously rotating the takedown lever with your right thumb. Release pressure on the muzzle and the gun is ready to have the side plate removed and broken down. The reason I do it this way is that I have seen too many guns slip on "non-marring" surfaces and end up with scratched muzzles or barrels, if not altogether dropped in the process. By cupping your left palm while applying pressure on the muzzle you make it virtually impossible for the gun to slip or go anywhere during the take-down process. I know some people may state that this is physically uncomfortable but I am still young enough to not mind the wear and tear on my palm!

01-06-2009, 02:46 PM	#14
MCNJ User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NJ USA Posts: 62 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Alanint, I see what your saying. But, as soon as I lock the breech open, any pressure on the takedown lever is relieved and is free to turn. I don not have to put any pressure pushing on the barrel. Is that a signal of wear someplace?

01-06-2009, 03:12 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	MCNJ There is no wear on your Luger. When you lock the breech open (using an empty magazine and the holdopen) you have taken the receiver out of battery just as if you had pushed on the barrel. (You are using the procedure posted by Lugerdoc) It is just a bit more involved because after you have rotated the takedown lever you then have to drop the magazine while holding back on the toggles to allow the holdopen to release and then slide the receiver off the frame. With the gun UNLOADED and the magazine out of the gun, us oldtimers usually just use our right hand to wrap our thumb under the rear of the frame with our fingers over the top of the toggle knobs and squeeze...this draws back the barrel/reciever group, then rotate down the takedown lever with our left hand. Quick and easy and you aren't going to drop anything or scratch the barrel. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-06-2009, 03:16 PM	#16
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	No, this is normal. I do not lock the breech open, but keep it closed when dissassembling. This will prevent the entire upper receiver from potentially flying forward and the side plate flying off once you turn the TD lever down. Try my procedure again with the toggle closed and you should see that the toggle must be pushed back slightly in order to get the lever to turn down. Then the entire upper cannon can be gently slid off the frame

01-06-2009, 04:01 PM	#19
MCNJ User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NJ USA Posts: 62 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks guys...........I will try each of your methods to find what seems easiest...lol But I am glad to hear that what I saw was not wear! Really appreciate it! Range in town is open Thursday. I will see how it works out.........The last thing I have to do is center the front sight.....it is way off to the left. ( hopefully the past owner did not set it there for a reason) I assume that light tapping with a wooden peg will do it???

01-06-2009, 04:07 PM	#20
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	I suggest you leave the front site where it is until you shoot the gun. If it is dead on at this setting you will have saved the gun an unecessary pounding. Sights are rarely messed with after they leave the factory since they are set dead on at manufacture and this could mean off center. Try it first. You can always go back and adjust it Are the staking marks on the front sight lined up? If so, all the more reason to not adjust it.