The paratrooper and the 92 Winchester (Sorry Long)

fg42 · 10-28-2008, 03:57 AM

The paratrooper and the 92 Winchester (Sorry Long)

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I was reading on Gunboards in the War stories board the thread "Great-Grandfather's story (plus notes) (Lengthy)". In which the writers great-grandfather, a British soldier relates that for a time he carried a Winchester lever action in action. This is causing a lot of disbelief and correcting the story By other readers. I believe that the old man might be remembering the truth and this story is why I feel that way. In 2001 my wife and I were on a "Bike Barge" tour of the Netherlands. I left the tour when it was possible to visit WW II sights and museums. In the Netherlands there are many WW II museums they are usually called 39-45 museums. I visited several and I am not 100% which one I saw this in but I think it was Neimeagan. There was a mannequin with a full paratroopers uniform and all the equipment he carried. At the mannequins side was a 92 Winchester. This didn't appear right to me so I asked why it was there. The Museum's curator told me that it was right. During operation " Market Garden" the US soldier was killed on a local farm. The farmer buried him and his uniform & rifle & equipment separately. This area was German occupied for almost a year. When liberation finally came the farmer came forward and showed graves registration the sites. The next of kin ( in Texas?) were notified that all of his personal belongings were intact. They said that since the uniform rifle, etc., were going to be in a museum that was being put together that his personal items should stay also. The curator showed me the holes in the back from a MP40 ? A canteen carrier held a supply of 44-40 lead bullet shells. He told me exactly the amount of money in the pockets to this day. The curator had no explanation for why the soldier had a 92 Winchester except that apparently he was familiar with it and decided to fight the war with it. Sorry this was so long but it was a great story to hear and retell. Bob Benson PS- 2 days later we watched the second plane fly into the Twin Towers live.

azlaw · 10-29-2008, 11:55 AM

Sort of an odd choice for combat use, but not impossible. These rifles were exported to Europe, so maybe he found it there.

Airborn forces in Market-Garden were poorly provisioned (the British had the worst of it), and relieving ground forces were very slow to arrive, or didn't arrive at all in the case of the British. Ammunition and everything else was in short supply, so maybe this dude lost his weapon or ran out of ammunition, found the 92 with some ammo and picked it up. Nijmegen is where the US airborn forces were concentrated, so that makes sense.

Only thing that is a bit odd is an American being far enough north to be in an area outside of the "Nijmegen Salient", in an area re-occupied by the Germans, consistent with the "hide the rifle" part of the tale. The British commander did not permit the Americans to advance toward Arnhem once they had secured Nijmegen, but that doesn't mean that a few folks didn't end up outside of their unit areas.

H

Edward Tinker · 10-29-2008, 12:10 PM

From what I have been told, Paratroopers could get away with a lot of using their own weapons; a lot like Special Forces do to this day. I have no reason to disbelieve a 92 Winchester being brought along; expecially after D Day. I would think that D Day troops were more likely to carry US issued weapons, while on the 2nd jump, you hear of trops that carried "extra" weapons, I think it was band of brothers that a trooper was carrying a shotgun with him? As an examples, it was far easier for a trooper to get a M1 carbine or Thompson than other ground troops could pick them up.

I have heard the story more than once of Vietnam Vets carrying S&W's, Colts, etc that were not issued, bringing it home was much harder, but getting it over there or picking it up over there was very possible.

For the WW2 vet, I see no reason to see why it was not sent to him or he picked it up locally.

I also know that US citizens sent large amounts of guns to the Brits when they called for arms (I have seen pictures of shotguns, old rifles, etc), but before the Lend Lease actually started rolling. From what I have read, I am sure most were stored or destroyed, AFTER the lend lease guns started coming over.

Ed

azlaw · 10-29-2008, 02:02 PM

The only thing was that airborne forces in Market-Garden were not coming out of combat, but rather directly from England after post D-Day rest, training, and refitting - they were (generally) fully equipped when they jumped. Seems unlikely (but not impossible) that someone would have such a non-standard weapon (for which no ammo would be available in combat) under those circumstances.

That said, we certainly know that GIs were quite willing to pick up (and buff and nickle) foreign weapons, eh?

A3 (as an aside) shotguns were really frowned on in the ETO in combat, and were not issued for that purpose. They were used to guard prisoners, however. The Germans claimed in 1918 they were illegal according to the Hague Convention, we thought (and still think) otherwise, but we stopped using them in combat (at least officially, in declared wars, except on the Japanese, a litttle bit, but they deserved it) ever since.

I know Vietnam vets who had weapons sent to them in country - it was pretty common - particularly handguns and shotguns, which were not issued to most enlisted folks, but which they strongly desired to have. Add to the that TO&Es (tables of organization and equipment) were much more strongly enforced in Vietnam than in WWII in regular combat units, and you have the reason. And no, they could not get them out. There was also a brisk mail order trade in a non-issued lubricant called "Dry-Slide", which supposedly helped to make the M-16 rifle actually work, which it did not when introduced.

H

alanint · 10-29-2008, 02:38 PM

The shotgun was widely issued and used in Viet Nam. Mostly Remington 870s but also re issued Winchester 1897s and others. Many soldiers walking point preferred them to break up an ambush or to dissengage from a sudden enemy encounter.
Shotguns were common among Navy seals, LRRPs, vehicle drivers, Helicopter and prop plane drivers and not a few line doggies
There was no stigma in issuing this weapon nor was it difficult to obtain for troops who had a reasonable use for them.

azlaw · 10-29-2008, 03:21 PM

And on the subject of non-standard Winchesters of WWII...

The famous English Commando Lord Lovat (Simon Fraser, 15th) was famous for carrying an "old Winchester" into battle at Dieppe and D-Day. Does anyone know what specific model it was?

Here is a picture of him with it, but it doesn't help much.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...en%2C_1942.JPG

H

lugerholsterrepair · 10-29-2008, 03:47 PM

"Dry-Slide", which supposedly helped to make the M-16 rifle actually work, which it did not when introduced.
The M-16 rifle was not at fault but rather the ammunition.

In squads with the 173rd Airborne we carried the M79 grenade launcher. It had a number of rounds available and one that was a flechette round, a glorified shotgun. Really a top notch weapon. Could launch a grenade, shoot flares, all sorts of uses.
I can't say as I remember many shotguns. There must have been some..
When I was in LRRP we all carried 16's.

Jerry Burney

policeluger · 10-29-2008, 05:00 PM

Memory is fading, but I think I had a Stevens 12ga in VN, it was "US" marked, it was for sure not a Win or Rem......I think.

Ron Wood · 10-29-2008, 05:24 PM

I checked out a 1897 Winchester 12ga. "riot gun" from the arms room on a few occasions in Vietnam.

alanint · 10-29-2008, 07:51 PM

Jerry,

Did you know Lt. Adrian Cruz in the 173rd Airborne, by any chance?

He was at Hill 875 at Dak To in November 67.

fg42 · 10-29-2008, 10:47 PM

If I remember correctly Lord Lovat carried a 6.5x54 MS Mannlicher Schoenauer Rifle. Bob Benson

MikeP · 10-30-2008, 01:54 AM

My dad jumped in with the 506th at Eindhoven.
They were fully re-equipped from Normandy.
Bastogne was a different deal. They were snatched up haphazardly, some without any weapons or gear.
I don't see how that guy could have stood many formations and kept that piece, but we'll never know.

Some units were more lenient than others in RVN, depended on what day what time and who was in charge.
Friend of mine returning from an operation playfully grabbed at a '97 Winchester another guy had at a guardpost.
His last words were "That's the last stupid thing I do with a gun."
He was a good guy.

It is best everybody carries the same piece in combat.
Ammo supply and sound being the chief considerations.
I worked with CIDG and we used M2 Carbines and BARs til the powers that be decided to arm them with '16s and other modern stuff.

10-28-2008, 03:57 AM	#1
fg42 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The paratrooper and the 92 Winchester (Sorry Long) The paratrooper and the 92 Winchester (Sorry Long) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was reading on Gunboards in the War stories board the thread "Great-Grandfather's story (plus notes) (Lengthy)". In which the writers great-grandfather, a British soldier relates that for a time he carried a Winchester lever action in action. This is causing a lot of disbelief and correcting the story By other readers. I believe that the old man might be remembering the truth and this story is why I feel that way. In 2001 my wife and I were on a "Bike Barge" tour of the Netherlands. I left the tour when it was possible to visit WW II sights and museums. In the Netherlands there are many WW II museums they are usually called 39-45 museums. I visited several and I am not 100% which one I saw this in but I think it was Neimeagan. There was a mannequin with a full paratroopers uniform and all the equipment he carried. At the mannequins side was a 92 Winchester. This didn't appear right to me so I asked why it was there. The Museum's curator told me that it was right. During operation " Market Garden" the US soldier was killed on a local farm. The farmer buried him and his uniform & rifle & equipment separately. This area was German occupied for almost a year. When liberation finally came the farmer came forward and showed graves registration the sites. The next of kin ( in Texas?) were notified that all of his personal belongings were intact. They said that since the uniform rifle, etc., were going to be in a museum that was being put together that his personal items should stay also. The curator showed me the holes in the back from a MP40 ? A canteen carrier held a supply of 44-40 lead bullet shells. He told me exactly the amount of money in the pockets to this day. The curator had no explanation for why the soldier had a 92 Winchester except that apparently he was familiar with it and decided to fight the war with it. Sorry this was so long but it was a great story to hear and retell. Bob Benson PS- 2 days later we watched the second plane fly into the Twin Towers live.

10-29-2008, 12:10 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	From what I have been told, Paratroopers could get away with a lot of using their own weapons; a lot like Special Forces do to this day. I have no reason to disbelieve a 92 Winchester being brought along; expecially after D Day. I would think that D Day troops were more likely to carry US issued weapons, while on the 2nd jump, you hear of trops that carried "extra" weapons, I think it was band of brothers that a trooper was carrying a shotgun with him? As an examples, it was far easier for a trooper to get a M1 carbine or Thompson than other ground troops could pick them up. I have heard the story more than once of Vietnam Vets carrying S&W's, Colts, etc that were not issued, bringing it home was much harder, but getting it over there or picking it up over there was very possible. For the WW2 vet, I see no reason to see why it was not sent to him or he picked it up locally. I also know that US citizens sent large amounts of guns to the Brits when they called for arms (I have seen pictures of shotguns, old rifles, etc), but before the Lend Lease actually started rolling. From what I have read, I am sure most were stored or destroyed, AFTER the lend lease guns started coming over. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-29-2008, 03:47 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	"Dry-Slide", which supposedly helped to make the M-16 rifle actually work, which it did not when introduced. The M-16 rifle was not at fault but rather the ammunition. In squads with the 173rd Airborne we carried the M79 grenade launcher. It had a number of rounds available and one that was a flechette round, a glorified shotgun. Really a top notch weapon. Could launch a grenade, shoot flares, all sorts of uses. I can't say as I remember many shotguns. There must have been some.. When I was in LRRP we all carried 16's. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-29-2008, 05:24 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	I checked out a 1897 Winchester 12ga. "riot gun" from the arms room on a few occasions in Vietnam. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-29-2008, 11:55 AM	#2
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 207 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Sort of an odd choice for combat use, but not impossible. These rifles were exported to Europe, so maybe he found it there. Airborn forces in Market-Garden were poorly provisioned (the British had the worst of it), and relieving ground forces were very slow to arrive, or didn't arrive at all in the case of the British. Ammunition and everything else was in short supply, so maybe this dude lost his weapon or ran out of ammunition, found the 92 with some ammo and picked it up. Nijmegen is where the US airborn forces were concentrated, so that makes sense. Only thing that is a bit odd is an American being far enough north to be in an area outside of the "Nijmegen Salient", in an area re-occupied by the Germans, consistent with the "hide the rifle" part of the tale. The British commander did not permit the Americans to advance toward Arnhem once they had secured Nijmegen, but that doesn't mean that a few folks didn't end up outside of their unit areas. H

10-29-2008, 02:02 PM	#4
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 207 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	The only thing was that airborne forces in Market-Garden were not coming out of combat, but rather directly from England after post D-Day rest, training, and refitting - they were (generally) fully equipped when they jumped. Seems unlikely (but not impossible) that someone would have such a non-standard weapon (for which no ammo would be available in combat) under those circumstances. That said, we certainly know that GIs were quite willing to pick up (and buff and nickle) foreign weapons, eh? A3 (as an aside) shotguns were really frowned on in the ETO in combat, and were not issued for that purpose. They were used to guard prisoners, however. The Germans claimed in 1918 they were illegal according to the Hague Convention, we thought (and still think) otherwise, but we stopped using them in combat (at least officially, in declared wars, except on the Japanese, a litttle bit, but they deserved it) ever since. I know Vietnam vets who had weapons sent to them in country - it was pretty common - particularly handguns and shotguns, which were not issued to most enlisted folks, but which they strongly desired to have. Add to the that TO&Es (tables of organization and equipment) were much more strongly enforced in Vietnam than in WWII in regular combat units, and you have the reason. And no, they could not get them out. There was also a brisk mail order trade in a non-issued lubricant called "Dry-Slide", which supposedly helped to make the M-16 rifle actually work, which it did not when introduced. H

10-29-2008, 02:38 PM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	The shotgun was widely issued and used in Viet Nam. Mostly Remington 870s but also re issued Winchester 1897s and others. Many soldiers walking point preferred them to break up an ambush or to dissengage from a sudden enemy encounter. Shotguns were common among Navy seals, LRRPs, vehicle drivers, Helicopter and prop plane drivers and not a few line doggies There was no stigma in issuing this weapon nor was it difficult to obtain for troops who had a reasonable use for them.

10-29-2008, 03:21 PM	#6
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 207 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	And on the subject of non-standard Winchesters of WWII... The famous English Commando Lord Lovat (Simon Fraser, 15th) was famous for carrying an "old Winchester" into battle at Dieppe and D-Day. Does anyone know what specific model it was? Here is a picture of him with it, but it doesn't help much. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...en%2C_1942.JPG H

10-29-2008, 05:00 PM	#8
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Memory is fading, but I think I had a Stevens 12ga in VN, it was "US" marked, it was for sure not a Win or Rem......I think.

10-29-2008, 07:51 PM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Jerry, Did you know Lt. Adrian Cruz in the 173rd Airborne, by any chance? He was at Hill 875 at Dak To in November 67.

10-29-2008, 10:47 PM	#11
fg42 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If I remember correctly Lord Lovat carried a 6.5x54 MS Mannlicher Schoenauer Rifle. Bob Benson

10-30-2008, 01:54 AM	#12
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	My dad jumped in with the 506th at Eindhoven. They were fully re-equipped from Normandy. Bastogne was a different deal. They were snatched up haphazardly, some without any weapons or gear. I don't see how that guy could have stood many formations and kept that piece, but we'll never know. Some units were more lenient than others in RVN, depended on what day what time and who was in charge. Friend of mine returning from an operation playfully grabbed at a '97 Winchester another guy had at a guardpost. His last words were "That's the last stupid thing I do with a gun." He was a good guy. It is best everybody carries the same piece in combat. Ammo supply and sound being the chief considerations. I worked with CIDG and we used M2 Carbines and BARs til the powers that be decided to arm them with '16s and other modern stuff.