German Article on "Shooters" and Remakes

JuergenG · 11-15-2001, 09:26 AM

http://www.visier.de/artikelbeitrag/artikelbeitrag_11348.html

Luke · 11-15-2001, 10:53 AM

Dok · 11-15-2001, 12:37 PM

While I appreciate your intent, an article in German really doesn't do much for the non-German speaking among us. Would you be kind enough to post a translation?

Dok (Webmaster)

stymie · 11-15-2001, 01:59 PM

http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn

looky here!

Dok · 11-15-2001, 03:16 PM

but these translation services are really only apopropriate for single words and sometimes phrases, NEVER to translate whole texts, they just can't handle the grammatical structure.

Dok

Wolfgang Pfeifer · 11-15-2001, 06:36 PM

Guten Tag Juergen,

Your address ends with a .DE and i suspect you are in Germany. I looked at Visier Web and found it to be similar to US webs. I can read it and it would be to much to translate.

I believe it would be most interresting for us Gun Owners in the USA, to learn what sort of rules and restrictions are inplace for Gun ownership in Germany.

I understand that Guns are among the most restricted and regulated items in Deutschland.

Would you give us an overview? Vielen Dank.

stymie · 11-15-2001, 08:07 PM

...go back to the URL! See where it has an entry for WEBPAGE? Enter that URL & click German to English! Works for me. ...no kiddin' LOL *ENJOY*

JuergenG · 11-16-2001, 05:11 AM

Hi Dok,

I'm sorry but as Wolfgang mentioned the article is really too long to translate it entirely.

The core is the ongoing discussion between collectors and shooters whether Lugers such as a "mint" 04 Navy are too precious to shoot or not.

It is mentioned that Lugers formerly used by the East German "Volkspolizei" are a good buy for shooters. These pistols have been reworked in Suhl and are available at reasonable prices. Pistols in good condition (non matching numbers) are available from $ 300, very good condition is said to sell from $ 450.

Most of these have new barrels of East German manufacture and black plastic grips. Some of the pistols are said to be assembled from a wild mix of parts from different decades and different proof marks, nevertheless shoot very precise.

The Werle and KTS models are based on used pistols and are a less costly alternative to the precious original 03 carbine and 04 Navy.

They and other companies are also making new creations from Luger parts, such as the Werle prototype "Baby" Luger seen here:

http://www.visier.de/archiv/archiv_beitrag_6556.html

This one is a prize in a charity auction for "The Kids of Chernobyl" initiated by the Visier magazine.

One lucky guy will win this one in early December; wish it would be me....

Juergen

JuergenG · 11-16-2001, 05:53 AM

Wolfgang,

yes, firearms are much restricted over here.

There are est. 3.5 million gun owners and about 20 organizations.

Every acquisition, with few exceptions, requires a permit issued prior to each single buy.

This permit is specific to kind and caliber. One can buy only ammunition of specific caliber(s) permitted unless one holds a collector's permit for ammunition.

Exceptions are made to non-repeating rifles/shotguns with a min. length of approx. 24 ".

This is applicable to multi barreled arms such as an over/under or drilling as well.

Once we have a permit for this kind, we can buy with no limitation and need to register the arm within 14 days.

Each permit requires a confirmation i.e. by a shooters association or range owner that one is in need for this particalur arm for sporting purposes.

The association or range owner must confirm that you have successfully shot for at least 6 months.

Also, a clean criminal record is required.

Loosing the drivers license i.e. for "driving under the influence" or even tax evasion are disqualifiers.

Even when you are in posession of firearms already and are sentenced in a criminal case the permit will be revoked.

Carry or concealed carry is strictly limited.

En route to the range guns and ammo must be seperated and not in direct reach.

Currently a "reform act" of the firearms law is in the makes.

Once the current draft which is in parliament will become law, things will get way more difficult.

Strict regulations on storage, unlimited access of authorities to ones house are just a few examples.

Also, when applying for another gun we will have to prove that all others in posession remain to be used for the purpose they were bought for; i.e. sporting or hunting.

No longer shooting in competitions actively shall mean that permits can be revoked.

This all although authorities know that least crime committed is in connection with legally owned firearms.

Per the federal police agency there are approx. 10 million legal arms in Germany, the number of illegal arms is estimated to be at least 20 million.

The government (thanks to the Greens) popularizes the issue.

They know that they can barely get a hold of illegal arms and therefore they go after the legally owned.

One having an illegal AK cheaply bought from the Russians after the fall of the East German border won't give a damn.

Well, up to now we are in a way better position than the folks in the UK who can hardly own firearms except shotguns.

Several associations/forums are trying hard to fight against the new law to come, but unfortunately we don't have such a powerful organization as you have with the NRA.

Keep going !

Juergen

Marvin · 11-16-2001, 07:16 AM

Juergen,

Thanks for the information on firearm ownership in Germany; this was very interesting! What about just a gun collector like many of us in the US. I do shoot pistols a little, but not that much. I just enjoy the collecting of Lugers and other Third Reich hanguns. I feel the history, the different mechincal aspects of the pistols, machining, finishing, etc. is a major enjoyment of the pistols. Must you obtain a permit for each pistol you collect and not necessarily shoot?

I hope your Parliment does not make it worse for you!

Marvin

JuergenG · 11-16-2001, 08:06 AM

Marvin,

collector permits are issued for certain weapon families of a specific timeframe; i.e. "1911 pistols developed up to 1918", "German military rifles developed up to 1945" .

As far as I know more general permits for i.e. "handguns of all kind" are issued rarely and to experts only.

Word is that such general permits are currently getting restricted retroactively (what a BS!).

However, holding a collectors permit allows for unlimited buy within the range specified. Guns need to be registered within a few weeks and a "full inventory" must be supplied to authorities on an annual basis.

They require this to have the ability to check whether one does collect seriously.

Juergen

Wolfgang Pfeifer · 11-16-2001, 03:12 PM

Juergen,

I thank you for providing the most illustrious and hard hitting PSA (Public Service Announcement) to the Gun Owners of the United States of America.

It is a night mare for Law Abiding Germans to own a fire arm.

I have been a member of the NRA for Years. I am sure so are my fellow gun owners. Perhaps we can launch an NRA Affiliate in Germany, but I suspect there may be a law against that.

Juergen, you have my gratitude for taking the time to answer my request.

Wenn Sie nach Amerika kommen, bitte melden Sie sich via e-mail. Besuch kann gut sein um meine Lugers zu besichtigen.

Gruss,

Wolfgang

Steve · 11-16-2001, 08:44 PM

One thing to remember is that in Germany as in Japan, the most restrictive ownership laws were initially imposed by the US in 1945.

I remmber reading a short story by an American tanker. They were under orders to confiscate all privately owned guns as they moved through Germany. He let and old man keep a drilling and pantomined for him to hide it. As he left in his tank, the man came running after him and pointed to a mine the tank was about to drive over. Would the man have warned him if he had taken the gun as orderd? Who knows.

11-15-2001, 09:26 AM	#1
JuergenG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 155 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	German Article on "Shooters" and Remakes http://www.visier.de/artikelbeitrag/artikelbeitrag_11348.html

11-15-2001, 10:53 AM	#2
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Wish I were fluent in Deutsch. (EOM)

11-15-2001, 12:37 PM	#3
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: German Article on "Shooters" and Remakes While I appreciate your intent, an article in German really doesn't do much for the non-German speaking among us. Would you be kind enough to post a translation? Dok (Webmaster)

11-15-2001, 01:59 PM	#4
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Try this........! http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn looky here!

11-15-2001, 03:16 PM	#5
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Nice try... but these translation services are really only apopropriate for single words and sometimes phrases, NEVER to translate whole texts, they just can't handle the grammatical structure. Dok

11-15-2001, 06:36 PM	#6
Wolfgang Pfeifer User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: German Article on "Shooters" and Remakes Guten Tag Juergen, Your address ends with a .DE and i suspect you are in Germany. I looked at Visier Web and found it to be similar to US webs. I can read it and it would be to much to translate. I believe it would be most interresting for us Gun Owners in the USA, to learn what sort of rules and restrictions are inplace for Gun ownership in Germany. I understand that Guns are among the most restricted and regulated items in Deutschland. Would you give us an overview? Vielen Dank.

11-15-2001, 08:07 PM	#7
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Arrrgh! context ...go back to the URL! See where it has an entry for WEBPAGE? Enter that URL & click German to English! Works for me. ...no kiddin' LOL ENJOY

11-16-2001, 05:11 AM	#8
JuergenG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 155 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: German Article on "Shooters" and Remakes Hi Dok, I'm sorry but as Wolfgang mentioned the article is really too long to translate it entirely. The core is the ongoing discussion between collectors and shooters whether Lugers such as a "mint" 04 Navy are too precious to shoot or not. It is mentioned that Lugers formerly used by the East German "Volkspolizei" are a good buy for shooters. These pistols have been reworked in Suhl and are available at reasonable prices. Pistols in good condition (non matching numbers) are available from $ 300, very good condition is said to sell from $ 450. Most of these have new barrels of East German manufacture and black plastic grips. Some of the pistols are said to be assembled from a wild mix of parts from different decades and different proof marks, nevertheless shoot very precise. The Werle and KTS models are based on used pistols and are a less costly alternative to the precious original 03 carbine and 04 Navy. They and other companies are also making new creations from Luger parts, such as the Werle prototype "Baby" Luger seen here: http://www.visier.de/archiv/archiv_beitrag_6556.html This one is a prize in a charity auction for "The Kids of Chernobyl" initiated by the Visier magazine. One lucky guy will win this one in early December; wish it would be me.... Juergen

11-16-2001, 05:53 AM	#9
JuergenG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 155 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Rules and Restrictions in Germany Wolfgang, yes, firearms are much restricted over here. There are est. 3.5 million gun owners and about 20 organizations. Every acquisition, with few exceptions, requires a permit issued prior to each single buy. This permit is specific to kind and caliber. One can buy only ammunition of specific caliber(s) permitted unless one holds a collector's permit for ammunition. Exceptions are made to non-repeating rifles/shotguns with a min. length of approx. 24 ". This is applicable to multi barreled arms such as an over/under or drilling as well. Once we have a permit for this kind, we can buy with no limitation and need to register the arm within 14 days. Each permit requires a confirmation i.e. by a shooters association or range owner that one is in need for this particalur arm for sporting purposes. The association or range owner must confirm that you have successfully shot for at least 6 months. Also, a clean criminal record is required. Loosing the drivers license i.e. for "driving under the influence" or even tax evasion are disqualifiers. Even when you are in posession of firearms already and are sentenced in a criminal case the permit will be revoked. Carry or concealed carry is strictly limited. En route to the range guns and ammo must be seperated and not in direct reach. Currently a "reform act" of the firearms law is in the makes. Once the current draft which is in parliament will become law, things will get way more difficult. Strict regulations on storage, unlimited access of authorities to ones house are just a few examples. Also, when applying for another gun we will have to prove that all others in posession remain to be used for the purpose they were bought for; i.e. sporting or hunting. No longer shooting in competitions actively shall mean that permits can be revoked. This all although authorities know that least crime committed is in connection with legally owned firearms. Per the federal police agency there are approx. 10 million legal arms in Germany, the number of illegal arms is estimated to be at least 20 million. The government (thanks to the Greens) popularizes the issue. They know that they can barely get a hold of illegal arms and therefore they go after the legally owned. One having an illegal AK cheaply bought from the Russians after the fall of the East German border won't give a damn. Well, up to now we are in a way better position than the folks in the UK who can hardly own firearms except shotguns. Several associations/forums are trying hard to fight against the new law to come, but unfortunately we don't have such a powerful organization as you have with the NRA. Keep going ! Juergen

11-16-2001, 07:16 AM	#10
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Rules and Restrictions in Germany Juergen, Thanks for the information on firearm ownership in Germany; this was very interesting! What about just a gun collector like many of us in the US. I do shoot pistols a little, but not that much. I just enjoy the collecting of Lugers and other Third Reich hanguns. I feel the history, the different mechincal aspects of the pistols, machining, finishing, etc. is a major enjoyment of the pistols. Must you obtain a permit for each pistol you collect and not necessarily shoot? I hope your Parliment does not make it worse for you! Marvin

11-16-2001, 08:06 AM	#11
JuergenG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 155 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Rules and Restrictions in Germany Marvin, collector permits are issued for certain weapon families of a specific timeframe; i.e. "1911 pistols developed up to 1918", "German military rifles developed up to 1945" . As far as I know more general permits for i.e. "handguns of all kind" are issued rarely and to experts only. Word is that such general permits are currently getting restricted retroactively (what a BS!). However, holding a collectors permit allows for unlimited buy within the range specified. Guns need to be registered within a few weeks and a "full inventory" must be supplied to authorities on an annual basis. They require this to have the ability to check whether one does collect seriously. Juergen

11-16-2001, 03:12 PM	#12
Wolfgang Pfeifer User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Rules and Restrictions in Germany Juergen, I thank you for providing the most illustrious and hard hitting PSA (Public Service Announcement) to the Gun Owners of the United States of America. It is a night mare for Law Abiding Germans to own a fire arm. I have been a member of the NRA for Years. I am sure so are my fellow gun owners. Perhaps we can launch an NRA Affiliate in Germany, but I suspect there may be a law against that. Juergen, you have my gratitude for taking the time to answer my request. Wenn Sie nach Amerika kommen, bitte melden Sie sich via e-mail. Besuch kann gut sein um meine Lugers zu besichtigen. Gruss, Wolfgang

11-16-2001, 08:44 PM	#13
Steve User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 200 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Rules and Restrictions in Germany One thing to remember is that in Germany as in Japan, the most restrictive ownership laws were initially imposed by the US in 1945. I remmber reading a short story by an American tanker. They were under orders to confiscate all privately owned guns as they moved through Germany. He let and old man keep a drilling and pantomined for him to hide it. As he left in his tank, the man came running after him and pointed to a mine the tank was about to drive over. Would the man have warned him if he had taken the gun as orderd? Who knows.