Soap box time

[wlyon]

It seems that we luger collectors are getting too critical and in many cases unreasonable. The lugers we collect were made for and used in war. They were not produced by perfect people or on perfect machines. It seems that any small deviation relegates the firearm to the infamous shooter class. I,at least ,am one collector who prefers a 90 - 95 % luger to a 98%. I can then ,other things being equal , be reasonably assured it is original. I also have no real hangup with mismatched grips, firing pins or mags. I have more problems and concerns with the 99% finish with everything perfect. I really don't feel after 40+ years of collecting that there are many of these perfect specimens around. At least that are original. One only needs to pull 3 new firearms of the exact type off a gunshelf. They will all have some minor difference if we study them long enough. With our modern equipment we can still not produce perfect consecutive pieces. How can we expect the Germans to have done this 66-108 years ago during a war?

Bill

[Ron Wood]

My turn to say Amen.

[Steinar]

You lucky guys over in the US has so much to choose from, having these pistols as a hobby, it's quite natural that the ones picked up is taken from the top shelf. When it comes to Lugers, this shelf has a great variation to pick from. That's what makes it all so interesting (and costly) I guess!

Most people would not understand why we go trough all the numbers in an almost autistic way and looking at it's apperance as if we where working for CSI. Naturally we drag this way to far, a classic sign of Lugeritmis. After all, it's not jewlery but old wartime pistols.. (even if the expense of the hobby might indicate othervice). But it's a beautiful fact that not everything has to make sense in the world, wipeing the dust of thousands Pez dispensers is someone elses cup of coffee.

The prefereces and expectations to a Luger is individual.. but the day non-matching or reblued Lugers are worthless, I think it's time to get into another area of collecting instead.


have fun,
Steinar (the blabbering norwegian)

[wdavid431]

I completely agree with these comments. Even though the "day non- matching or reblued Lugers are worthless," may be considered that way by some, I still think we should remember they are still Lugers and brave old soldiers.
Steinar, if what you said is considered "blabbering," it still has the ring of truth in it. Please continue "blabbering."

[alanint]

Does anybody dig up old Roman swords today and say, "wait a minute, that's a REPLACEMENT hilt!"?

Someday ALL Lugers will be regarded as treasures of a bygone era considering the very brief window in time that they were produced. Nobody will care much about strict originality in time.

[Ron Smith]

Bill,

Very well stated, and needed to be said.

Ron

[LugerVern]

Bill

I think most would agree with you.

I made a comment on Still's forum about the large percentage of failed lugers and what happened to the usable parts-- they didn't just throw them away, they were used on other guns.

Some of the so called miss matched shooters may actually be original factory guns.

We now have high resolution cameras that can take macros with details clear enough to study if posted here on the forum and it is my bet that at least some could be reclassified as original if we set our minds to it.

Luger collecting needs to go to the next level, we need to keep ahead of the fakers or luger collecting will be in deep trouble, at the same time we can open doors to collecting that have not been opened before. With the supply fixed and no un discovered batches of lugers in the foreseeable future prices will continue to rise, it makes looking at each luger more closely worth while.

A camera with a good macro can be had for under $600 a mismatched shooter for about $1000 discovering it is actually original stampings might increase its value to$2000, not as much as a perfectly stamped gun but certainly more than a shooter.

I am very tired of the pretty fakes, I do not intend to let up on exposing them, I would much rather prove a mismatched honest gun to be original than to allow this pretty junk into our hobby.

Just my two cents worth


Vern

[railman44]

Condition, so long as respectable and not a basketcase, has never really bothered me. Being new to lugers and coming from semi-collecting Colt SAA's, I found the demand for acquiring a mint relic many times 80+ years old somewhat funny. Especially a relic that many times was used in a world war and kept in a leather holster. Condition is important in collecting just about anything but sometimes I feel this has been taken to an extreme in the luger world. In my opinion, this has lead to some unscrupulous sorts rebluing and harming the real value of an artifact of history while trying to pass the luger off as pristine. I've become paranoid of any luger represented as 95% or more regarding it's bluing. I'm much more comfortable purchasing a luger that looks like it's age. There were only so many desk-jockies issued lugers that religiously cleaned and oiled their luger daily. Those rare lugers, I would imagine, have been in collections for over 50 years...

[policeluger]

All above very true, but correct mint original examples in the investment arena will always out perform lesser guns. If not so Ron W. lets go shot those tests you got....

[Edward Tinker]

So, yes Bill, I know many purist collectors, but to me, especially firing pins and grips; it doesn't faze me when they are unmarked.... (I prefer them "correct", but I won't pass up a gun that is like that).

I try to find the "most" correct guns that I can, but as an example, a friend and I did a deal recently, and there was one mismatched part. He immediately offered me my money back. I told him, NO WAY, I wanted this gun and example and it was good for my collection!


Ed

[Don M]

From my perpsective, the more prisitine the condition, the less interesting is its history!

[raygun]

Originally posted by Don M
From my perpsective, the more prisitine the condition, the less interesting is its history!

Well said .

I like my pieces to be close as possible to original and basically sound , but a bit of wear and tear , especially in a gun 70 to 100 years old , adds to its charm and interest . One always thinks - if only it could talk and tell me its story!

[wlyon]

If someone purchases a 98% luger with everything matching including 2 matching mags. they need to play the lottery. They either got extremely lucky or possibly taken. Guess which the odds favor? What I find interesting is 40 years ago I seen very few 98% lugers with matching mags. And this was when lugers were quite plentiful. Now these are more numerous than back then. I wonder why? I personally collect lugers as much for the history as anything else. I want and expect them to be used. A while ago Tac foley made a statement that I really liked. He said " History and what it does to an object is an irreplaceable part of the object. Bingo! Bill

[Jasta2]

OK, so this might be somewhat off topic, but I love the Model A Ford and own a beautiful fully restored 1930 Model A Town Sedan, this was restored to be a "driver", but it can compete in the "Touring" class for awards. Where the mint Luger fits in. There is, for Model As, also a "Hi-Point" class, 500 points max, for "perfect" restorations right down to every nut and bolt as it left the factory. The trouble is that if a "true" mint original Model A could be found as it rolled of the line, it would most likely score no more that 450 points with typical factory errors/flaws. So much is desired to have this "perfect" 500 point mint car, that the real history is overshadowed. Sure, 100% mint Lugers ( original, not restored like our Model As) might be great to own, but they remind me of the "Trailer Queens" at the car shows,. Those cars are so "Mint" and "Costly",they are only driven on and off the trailer for the show. I guess many "mint" Lugers (as well as other firearms) fall into what I call the "White Glove" class. Never to be handled without gloves and "heaven no" never to be fired. Their worth may be more that that of a truly restored car! Maybe I am just jealous (sp?) that ill will never be able to afford a "Trailer Queen" Model A or a "White Glove" Luger, but I will be happy driving my Model A and shooting my Lugers. Hats off to the well healed collectors.
Bill

[A.Mifsin]

As for me, I will buy any Luger in any condition that fits in my collection to fill any missing gap, as long as the price is right, then, when I find one in better condition I will upgrade. With the prices of the Lugers going up every day, my replacement Lugers will also be a bit more than I bought them, so the price of the new luger will be less of a burden for me to fork out.
Alf

[MikeP]

I remember a while back somebody remarking on the current flood of 98% pieces.
He saw one at a show he used to own.

It had miraculously gone from a 60% piece to a 98% piece and had a matching sideplate.
Being sold as original of course.

[JoeP.08]

Unfortunately that is a "reality" of Luger collecting. Each collector has a series of "litmus" tests (or should have) a "prospective piece" must pass. If you do not have a series of tests to check a future purchase, look at Tom Armstrong's sticky on checking P.04's. It's is an excellent guide, as I use a variation of it. Several advanced collectors that I know have similar standards.

It all comes down to the power of "greed". If a business can get a few extra bucks out of Luger just by wiping some cold blue on high wear spots, why wouldn't they?

Best regards,

Joe Pirolo

[John Sabato]

Originally posted by JoeP.08
It all comes down to the power greed. If a business can get a few extra bucks out of Luger just by wiping some cold blue on high wear spots, why wouldn't they?

Best regards,

Joe Pirolo

Maybe because it just isn't ethical Joe... when I find a 'dealer' that engages in this practice, they are crossed off my list... and anything that I hear has been sourced from them becomes suspect and subject to extreme scrutiny.

Knowingly representing a Luger, or any other collectible firearm as something it is not ...is just plain Fraud IMHO...plain and simple. If we don't police this hobby, we are screwing ourselves, not the dealers.

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

[JoeP.08]

John,

You are a learned and ethical man. One can see that from your postings. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who do not allow ethics or morality guide their behavior. I was stating a fact, not the legality/ethics of the practice. Yes, you are right it is a crime (a form of larceny) and we do need to guard ourselves against it.

Best Regards,

Joe

[raygun]

Trying to "enhance" it may ruin an otherwise nice original gun as well.