Ivory grips on AE 1900

drweiler · 05-25-2008, 05:50 PM

Hi Ron,
Some time ago I said I'd get you a photo of these hand carved ivory grips on this AE 1900 s.n. 13729. They are identical pattern both panels with slight variation in carving, with leather spacers between grip screws and ivory. There are no maker marks. My father acquired it like this in 1939, in family since. Wonder if anyone has seen similar? The magazine is not original, being an Imperial marked Erfurt # 557 no suffix. Cheers and thanks, Don

Ron Wood · 05-25-2008, 06:51 PM

Don,

Nice! Whoever made those grips was no stranger to carving ivory. Very well done. The style would indicate that they probably are close to contemporary with the gun. Later ivory grips usually have either a germanic oak leaf pattern or oriental dragon motif (I have a set of dragon ivory grips stashed someplace if I can ever find them among all the little boxes I still haven't unpacked.

Thank you for remembering to post them. It is always a joy to see neat stuff.
Ron

alvin · 05-25-2008, 07:23 PM

Dragon.... 1900..... probably for Qing Emporer! Before 1911, no other one in China could legally use dragon of this style as decoration.

Or, post 1911 for a few warlords with emporer-to-be dreams? .... why 1900 type though, unlikely.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-25-2008, 08:56 PM

Gotta love the look and patina of old ivory. Really a beautiful material for pistol grips. Even ivory with no carvings on it is stunning.
Both of these grips are quite beautiful.

Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 05-25-2008, 09:02 PM

Alvin,

Nice thought, but the dragon grips aren't for a 1900. They were on a WWII Mauser Luger in pretty tacky shape. I would guess they were made up for a GI. The workmanship is superior, far better than the gun they were on deserved. Fortunately the owner was willing to sell the grips without the gun for a fairly reasonable price. They really are the nicest ivory Luger grips I have encountered.

I am interested in your comment that a dragon of this style was only legal for an emperor. I have always wondered if the grips were Chinese or Japanese in origin. I saw a reference to the dragons being the "dragon of war (open mouth)" and the "dragon of peace (closed mouth)", but I know nothing beyond that, and I don't even know if that is accurate.

alvin · 05-25-2008, 09:56 PM

Ron --

Dragon was a traditional royal symbol in the East. Both Chinese and Japanese used Dragon symbols but with a difference -- the claw of Chinese Dragon has five fingers, and Japanese Dragon has three fingers.

Below is a Chinese Silver Coin of "34th YEAR OF KUANG HSU" (1908) which
shows a Chinese Dragon.... and a "wall" in a former royal park.... his mouth
is always open.

Ron Wood · 05-25-2008, 11:08 PM

Ah, so...verrry enlightening! My dragons have three toes...ergo, Japanese. That may support my assumption that the grips were made during the US post war occupation of Japan. The burning question that will never be answered is: How did a GI in post WWII Japan have a Luger with which to fit these grips?

A.Mifsin · 05-26-2008, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Wood
Ah, so...verrry enlightening! My dragons have three toes...ergo, Japanese. That may support my assumption that the grips were made during the US post war occupation of Japan. The burning question that will never be answered is: How did a GI in post WWII Japan have a Luger with which to fit these grips?

Maybe he was in Europe in 1944/45 were he took it as a trophy, then, afterwards he was stationed to Japan.

Alf.

Ron Wood · 05-26-2008, 09:10 AM

Alf,

That is probably the most likely scenario.

Dwight Gruber · 05-26-2008, 02:36 PM

In China, the five-toed dragon was symbolic of the Emperor, and could not be used by anyone else. Lesser officials got away with dragon decorations by portraying dragons with fewer toes.

I have a pair of smooth ivory grips for a P08 (cannot use them on my current 1906 shooting Luger, drat!), they are the most comfortable and inviting grips I have felt on any gun, ever.

--Dwight

alvin · 05-26-2008, 06:06 PM

Grip study becomes Dragon study. I bet ancient human being hundreds of thousands years ago witnessed a few types of dinosaurs. Here is a Japanese silver coin of 1887:

http://cgi.ebay.com/JAPAN-1887-SILVE...QQcmdZViewItem

Ron Wood · 05-26-2008, 06:55 PM

So, I am back to the uncertainty of Chinese or Japanese origin. Darned inscrutable orientals.

Rod WMG · 05-27-2008, 12:52 AM

Don, nice grips. I'm sort of picky about what I like and I like those.

alvin · 05-27-2008, 06:10 PM

I did a little study on Qing Dynasty Dragon on the web today. Dwight was right -- dragon could be used by lesser officials. Arch Duke type of position (sons, brothers or uncles of Emperor) could use five-toe dragon with "swiming-down" pose. Strictly speaking, if the number of toes are less than five, the creature is not called dragon anymore, it's named as "Python" (that's news to me), used by positions like Duke. Positions like governors, generals could not even use Python, they could only use crest like crane, peacock, lion, etc according to the hierarchy.

ken d · 05-28-2008, 07:59 PM

Unrelated to dragons but my favorite ivories. Fashioned from walrus
ivory by an old aleut after a chance encounter with an ET.
Regards Ken D

ken d · 05-28-2008, 08:22 PM

Backside

05-25-2008, 05:50 PM	#1
drweiler New User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Phoenix in the winter, England in the summer Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ivory grips on AE 1900 Hi Ron, Some time ago I said I'd get you a photo of these hand carved ivory grips on this AE 1900 s.n. 13729. They are identical pattern both panels with slight variation in carving, with leather spacers between grip screws and ivory. There are no maker marks. My father acquired it like this in 1939, in family since. Wonder if anyone has seen similar? The magazine is not original, being an Imperial marked Erfurt # 557 no suffix. Cheers and thanks, Don

05-25-2008, 06:51 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Don, Nice! Whoever made those grips was no stranger to carving ivory. Very well done. The style would indicate that they probably are close to contemporary with the gun. Later ivory grips usually have either a germanic oak leaf pattern or oriental dragon motif (I have a set of dragon ivory grips stashed someplace if I can ever find them among all the little boxes I still haven't unpacked. Thank you for remembering to post them. It is always a joy to see neat stuff. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-25-2008, 08:56 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Gotta love the look and patina of old ivory. Really a beautiful material for pistol grips. Even ivory with no carvings on it is stunning. Both of these grips are quite beautiful. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-25-2008, 09:02 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Alvin, Nice thought, but the dragon grips aren't for a 1900. They were on a WWII Mauser Luger in pretty tacky shape. I would guess they were made up for a GI. The workmanship is superior, far better than the gun they were on deserved. Fortunately the owner was willing to sell the grips without the gun for a fairly reasonable price. They really are the nicest ivory Luger grips I have encountered. I am interested in your comment that a dragon of this style was only legal for an emperor. I have always wondered if the grips were Chinese or Japanese in origin. I saw a reference to the dragons being the "dragon of war (open mouth)" and the "dragon of peace (closed mouth)", but I know nothing beyond that, and I don't even know if that is accurate. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-25-2008, 11:08 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Ah, so...verrry enlightening! My dragons have three toes...ergo, Japanese. That may support my assumption that the grips were made during the US post war occupation of Japan. The burning question that will never be answered is: How did a GI in post WWII Japan have a Luger with which to fit these grips? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-25-2008, 07:23 PM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Dragon.... 1900..... probably for Qing Emporer! Before 1911, no other one in China could legally use dragon of this style as decoration. Or, post 1911 for a few warlords with emporer-to-be dreams? .... why 1900 type though, unlikely.

05-25-2008, 09:56 PM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Ron -- Dragon was a traditional royal symbol in the East. Both Chinese and Japanese used Dragon symbols but with a difference -- the claw of Chinese Dragon has five fingers, and Japanese Dragon has three fingers. Below is a Chinese Silver Coin of "34th YEAR OF KUANG HSU" (1908) which shows a Chinese Dragon.... and a "wall" in a former royal park.... his mouth is always open.

05-26-2008, 09:10 AM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Alf, That is probably the most likely scenario. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-26-2008, 02:36 PM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	In China, the five-toed dragon was symbolic of the Emperor, and could not be used by anyone else. Lesser officials got away with dragon decorations by portraying dragons with fewer toes. I have a pair of smooth ivory grips for a P08 (cannot use them on my current 1906 shooting Luger, drat!), they are the most comfortable and inviting grips I have felt on any gun, ever. --Dwight

05-26-2008, 06:06 PM	#11
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Grip study becomes Dragon study. I bet ancient human being hundreds of thousands years ago witnessed a few types of dinosaurs. Here is a Japanese silver coin of 1887: http://cgi.ebay.com/JAPAN-1887-SILVE...QQcmdZViewItem

05-26-2008, 06:55 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	So, I am back to the uncertainty of Chinese or Japanese origin. Darned inscrutable orientals. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-27-2008, 12:52 AM	#13
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Don, nice grips. I'm sort of picky about what I like and I like those.

05-27-2008, 06:10 PM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I did a little study on Qing Dynasty Dragon on the web today. Dwight was right -- dragon could be used by lesser officials. Arch Duke type of position (sons, brothers or uncles of Emperor) could use five-toe dragon with "swiming-down" pose. Strictly speaking, if the number of toes are less than five, the creature is not called dragon anymore, it's named as "Python" (that's news to me), used by positions like Duke. Positions like governors, generals could not even use Python, they could only use crest like crane, peacock, lion, etc according to the hierarchy.

05-28-2008, 07:59 PM	#15
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Unrelated to dragons but my favorite ivories. Fashioned from walrus ivory by an old aleut after a chance encounter with an ET. Regards Ken D

05-28-2008, 08:22 PM	#16
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Backside