Navy-Type Flat Board

cirelaw · 03-05-2008, 11:03 AM

Eric , If all goes well, Ill get my 1908 navy luger, and will be shoping for the attachments i.e. navy holster, flat board stock etc, Any idea how much more I will have to spend for correct and in fine condition both essential pieces.

cirelaw · 03-05-2008, 11:16 AM

Finally, in regards to 'flat board stocks' is there and difference between the commercial and military type boards.Are they numbered to the individual gun. What if any differences between individual boards, Thank You, Eric Esq.

Navy · 03-05-2008, 01:18 PM

Commercial stocks are un-numbered on the iron and disc. The disc may or may not have the C/M. On commercial stocks intended for the US market post W.W.I, they will be marked "Germany", normally in the cut out area between the strap eyes. Otherwise, they are physically indisquishable from their military bretheren. Commercial stocks are *very* rare.

Tom A

cirelaw · 03-05-2008, 01:55 PM

Tom, again, if you dont know it, it hasnt been invented! one last thing, any idea how much I will have to spend on a good one?

Big Norm · 03-06-2008, 02:19 AM

Eric,
there is a difference between the original military navy stock made for the P-04 and the original army stock made for the LP-08. According to Jan Stills, the LP-08 stock is approximately 14 inches long* and the P-04 stock is approximately 13 inches long**. At the moment, I don't know if there were other differences in the cut of the wood. Original navy stocks with marked brass buttons, numbered attaching iron and maybe unit marks are quite rare and priced accordingly. Commercial P-04 stocks will PROBABLY be indistinguishable from LP-08's as Tom said.
Big Norm

* Imperial Lugers and their Accesories, Jan Stills pg 109
** Same as above pg 186

cirelaw · 03-06-2008, 07:55 AM

Norm, nice job, You must be a fellow historian. Thanks or answering my inquiry so well. If you would please email me, so I can share my collection, 'snookem13@aol.com'

Ron Wood · 03-06-2008, 08:44 AM

Commercial P-04 stocks are not indistinguishable from LP-08 stocks. The commercial P-04 stocks are identical to the military P-04 stocks except, as Tom said, they are un-numbered on the iron and the disk, but the disk may have a Crown/M proof. I have one, and it is not GERMANY marked.

cirelaw · 03-06-2008, 09:15 AM

What can I expect to pay for a fine example??

Navy · 03-06-2008, 10:37 AM

Expect to pay north of $4K. And be *very* careful as most (8 out of 10 I have seen in last several years) are fakes.

If you do not have a good deal of experience handling these you should get a second opinion from someone who has.

Tom A

cirelaw · 03-06-2008, 10:48 AM

Beleive me, I take your advice seriously. Ive gotten burnt in the past.

Big Norm · 03-07-2008, 02:42 PM

Ron,
I have never seen a ORIGINAL commercial navy stock and that probably what was playing on my mind while I was writing what I wrote. What I had on my mind was more MODERN commercial. Gosh, we sure are getting into a lot of adjectives here. I couldn't see a need for a disk on an original commercial navy stock since that was a navy requirement at one time and so there wouldn't be a need for one on a commercial stock. I was also more focused on the wood of the stock since there were previous discussions on this on this forum. My brain kept thinking that there MIGHT be a difference in the neck too. But the only bonified reference that I could QUICKLY find in my books referred to the difference in the length.

Original military navy stocks are quite rare and pretty expensive. So I only have one in my collection. Its a beauty (Danzig markings) and I paid plenty for it, but I have to admit that I often wondered if I should have put that money into another navy gun instead. Oh well, onward and forward. No real regrets now.

Maybe what I will do is whip out that original, military, navy stock and visually compare it to one of my original, military artillery stocks and satisfy myself to some degree. That won't satisfy my curiousity about original, commercial navy stocks though. Maybe I will look into my old and reliable 'Luger Book' by John Walter. Most of the pages in it are loose from usage over the years but they are all there. I have a new one but I haven't transferred all my many notes in it from the old one yet.
Big Norm

cirelaw · 03-07-2008, 03:08 PM

A simple question, besides DWM were there any other manufactures of the 'Naval Luger' If so what differences exist between scarcity, value and integrety. Besides their innate beautyy, I intrique by the History behing them. Tom, please hurry!

George Anderson · 03-07-2008, 03:18 PM

Only DWM made Imperial six inch barrel Lugers but several guys here in the States are making them now. Those being made now appear to have been built upon 1920' commercial Luger donor guns. These newly built Navy Lugers have scammed quite a few collectors so I advise extreme caution with your new acquisition.

cirelaw · 03-07-2008, 03:26 PM

Are the boards interchangable, Are they numbered to the gun, What are some of the tell-tale signs something smells in Bremman!And then theres the holster, mag pouch. Are the mags numbered to the gun?? ok soup to nuts, How much can one expect to pay assuming one is available, for an entire correct rig in nice condition!! I never knew what I was buying into. Eric, Esq

cirelaw · 03-07-2008, 03:28 PM

Thank you George!! A free codicil!

cirelaw · 03-07-2008, 03:41 PM

Did DWM manufacture the boards and holsters or were they farmed out. what if any variations exist??

Big Norm · 03-07-2008, 03:45 PM

Eric,
I would love to compare notes and collections with a fellow collector. Bragging is good! The problem is that I bought a digital camera for myself a year ago Christmas and its still sitting in the box. Funny thing happens when you retire. All of a sudden you don't have time to complete anything. I have to get married so I can blame my wife for not having all this work done around the house. Its tough taking the blame for everything that I do wrong.

I started out going to gun shows with some buddies. They all collected P-08's and would talk about their buying strategies around the coffee table at the shows. Since I was just learning, I didn't want to get them mad by buying P-08 Lugers that they were interested in and talking about. So I went into artillery Lugers. Well, after a while, I had most of the artilleries and I bite the EXPENSIVE bullet and started going after the navies. Trust me, thats the hard way to start collecting Lugers. But what the heck, I've always been known more for my handsome looks than my intelligence anyway (but, its a close call).

There are many very good people on this forum and I don't mean to put down any of them. But I always prefer to shut up when Ron Wood or Jerry Burney start a yaking. They are two of the Best of the Best. I would love to go down to Ron's place and spend some time learning his wonderful photography skills and talking to him about a certain 1902 AE and discuss something about Borchardt magazines (Yah, I've got one of those thingies too). But now that I hear that Texas is having a bunch of snow, I don't think that I will. We have too much of it here in Michigan (where is all that global warming that Al Gore and all those scientific movie stars are talking about?).

Well, I've written my manuscript for 2008 and I'll go for now and play with my 5 month old dachshund, Kaiser. I'll send you a PM but don't expect any pictures until I at least finish my income taxes. I don't want President Hillary coming here and finishing me off like she did her lawyer, Vince Foster. (Cheney just winged his lawyer).
Big Norm

cirelaw · 03-07-2008, 04:06 PM

Norm, I just sent you a private message. Please E-Me 'snookem13@aol.com' so we can exchange baby pictures!!

Navy · 03-07-2008, 04:32 PM

A complete rig, original in every respects with 2 matching mags will command $20K + assuming you can ever find one. They have essentially doubled in price and scarcity in the past 5 years.

Tom A

cirelaw · 03-07-2008, 05:02 PM

Just like the price of GOLD!!

03-05-2008, 11:03 AM	#1
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Navy-Type Flat Board Eric , If all goes well, Ill get my 1908 navy luger, and will be shoping for the attachments i.e. navy holster, flat board stock etc, Any idea how much more I will have to spend for correct and in fine condition both essential pieces.

03-06-2008, 08:44 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Commercial P-04 stocks are not indistinguishable from LP-08 stocks. The commercial P-04 stocks are identical to the military P-04 stocks except, as Tom said, they are un-numbered on the iron and the disk, but the disk may have a Crown/M proof. I have one, and it is not GERMANY marked. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-05-2008, 11:16 AM	#2
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Finally, in regards to 'flat board stocks' is there and difference between the commercial and military type boards.Are they numbered to the individual gun. What if any differences between individual boards, Thank You, Eric Esq.

03-05-2008, 01:18 PM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Commercial stocks are un-numbered on the iron and disc. The disc may or may not have the C/M. On commercial stocks intended for the US market post W.W.I, they will be marked "Germany", normally in the cut out area between the strap eyes. Otherwise, they are physically indisquishable from their military bretheren. Commercial stocks are very rare. Tom A

03-05-2008, 01:55 PM	#4
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Tom, again, if you dont know it, it hasnt been invented! one last thing, any idea how much I will have to spend on a good one?

03-06-2008, 02:19 AM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Eric, there is a difference between the original military navy stock made for the P-04 and the original army stock made for the LP-08. According to Jan Stills, the LP-08 stock is approximately 14 inches long* and the P-04 stock is approximately 13 inches long*. At the moment, I don't know if there were other differences in the cut of the wood. Original navy stocks with marked brass buttons, numbered attaching iron and maybe unit marks are quite rare and priced accordingly. Commercial P-04 stocks will PROBABLY be indistinguishable from LP-08's as Tom said. Big Norm Imperial Lugers and their Accesories, Jan Stills pg 109 ** Same as above pg 186

03-06-2008, 07:55 AM	#6
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Norm, nice job, You must be a fellow historian. Thanks or answering my inquiry so well. If you would please email me, so I can share my collection, 'snookem13@aol.com'

03-06-2008, 09:15 AM	#8
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	What can I expect to pay for a fine example??

03-06-2008, 10:37 AM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Expect to pay north of $4K. And be very careful as most (8 out of 10 I have seen in last several years) are fakes. If you do not have a good deal of experience handling these you should get a second opinion from someone who has. Tom A

03-06-2008, 10:48 AM	#10
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Beleive me, I take your advice seriously. Ive gotten burnt in the past.

03-07-2008, 02:42 PM	#11
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ron, I have never seen a ORIGINAL commercial navy stock and that probably what was playing on my mind while I was writing what I wrote. What I had on my mind was more MODERN commercial. Gosh, we sure are getting into a lot of adjectives here. I couldn't see a need for a disk on an original commercial navy stock since that was a navy requirement at one time and so there wouldn't be a need for one on a commercial stock. I was also more focused on the wood of the stock since there were previous discussions on this on this forum. My brain kept thinking that there MIGHT be a difference in the neck too. But the only bonified reference that I could QUICKLY find in my books referred to the difference in the length. Original military navy stocks are quite rare and pretty expensive. So I only have one in my collection. Its a beauty (Danzig markings) and I paid plenty for it, but I have to admit that I often wondered if I should have put that money into another navy gun instead. Oh well, onward and forward. No real regrets now. Maybe what I will do is whip out that original, military, navy stock and visually compare it to one of my original, military artillery stocks and satisfy myself to some degree. That won't satisfy my curiousity about original, commercial navy stocks though. Maybe I will look into my old and reliable 'Luger Book' by John Walter. Most of the pages in it are loose from usage over the years but they are all there. I have a new one but I haven't transferred all my many notes in it from the old one yet. Big Norm

03-07-2008, 03:08 PM	#12
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	A simple question, besides DWM were there any other manufactures of the 'Naval Luger' If so what differences exist between scarcity, value and integrety. Besides their innate beautyy, I intrique by the History behing them. Tom, please hurry!

03-07-2008, 03:18 PM	#13
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Only DWM made Imperial six inch barrel Lugers but several guys here in the States are making them now. Those being made now appear to have been built upon 1920' commercial Luger donor guns. These newly built Navy Lugers have scammed quite a few collectors so I advise extreme caution with your new acquisition.

03-07-2008, 03:26 PM	#14
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Are the boards interchangable, Are they numbered to the gun, What are some of the tell-tale signs something smells in Bremman!And then theres the holster, mag pouch. Are the mags numbered to the gun?? ok soup to nuts, How much can one expect to pay assuming one is available, for an entire correct rig in nice condition!! I never knew what I was buying into. Eric, Esq

03-07-2008, 03:28 PM	#15
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Thank you George!! A free codicil!

03-07-2008, 03:41 PM	#16
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Did DWM manufacture the boards and holsters or were they farmed out. what if any variations exist??

03-07-2008, 03:45 PM	#17
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Eric, I would love to compare notes and collections with a fellow collector. Bragging is good! The problem is that I bought a digital camera for myself a year ago Christmas and its still sitting in the box. Funny thing happens when you retire. All of a sudden you don't have time to complete anything. I have to get married so I can blame my wife for not having all this work done around the house. Its tough taking the blame for everything that I do wrong. I started out going to gun shows with some buddies. They all collected P-08's and would talk about their buying strategies around the coffee table at the shows. Since I was just learning, I didn't want to get them mad by buying P-08 Lugers that they were interested in and talking about. So I went into artillery Lugers. Well, after a while, I had most of the artilleries and I bite the EXPENSIVE bullet and started going after the navies. Trust me, thats the hard way to start collecting Lugers. But what the heck, I've always been known more for my handsome looks than my intelligence anyway (but, its a close call). There are many very good people on this forum and I don't mean to put down any of them. But I always prefer to shut up when Ron Wood or Jerry Burney start a yaking. They are two of the Best of the Best. I would love to go down to Ron's place and spend some time learning his wonderful photography skills and talking to him about a certain 1902 AE and discuss something about Borchardt magazines (Yah, I've got one of those thingies too). But now that I hear that Texas is having a bunch of snow, I don't think that I will. We have too much of it here in Michigan (where is all that global warming that Al Gore and all those scientific movie stars are talking about?). Well, I've written my manuscript for 2008 and I'll go for now and play with my 5 month old dachshund, Kaiser. I'll send you a PM but don't expect any pictures until I at least finish my income taxes. I don't want President Hillary coming here and finishing me off like she did her lawyer, Vince Foster. (Cheney just winged his lawyer). Big Norm

03-07-2008, 04:06 PM	#18
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Norm, I just sent you a private message. Please E-Me 'snookem13@aol.com' so we can exchange baby pictures!!

03-07-2008, 04:32 PM	#19
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	A complete rig, original in every respects with 2 matching mags will command $20K + assuming you can ever find one. They have essentially doubled in price and scarcity in the past 5 years. Tom A

03-07-2008, 05:02 PM	#20
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Just like the price of GOLD!!