droop wing eagle proof on tool

nickn · 02-24-2008, 12:24 PM

please could some one tell me if this would be classed as a police issue tool? or was this droop wing weimer eagle used on all tools issued during the republic?

nickn · 02-25-2008, 08:02 AM

was this a silly question?

Ron Smith · 02-25-2008, 09:17 AM

Nick,

There are no silly questions. Just no appropriate answer. Possibly a fake?

John Sabato · 02-25-2008, 09:48 AM

Ed Tinker should have a better handle on this answer. He is into the Weimar era guns and accessories.

nickn · 02-25-2008, 10:18 AM

i bought the holster and tool around 30 years ago from an estate sale ,it came with the gun which sadly the family handed in to the police and was destroyed!, so i dont think its a fake it is around 2.5 mm thick

Ron Smith · 02-25-2008, 11:00 AM

It could be a Weimar era tool. I've never seen one with just the Eagle on it. Most often there will be a number also.

By "around 2.5mm" is it thicker or thinner than 2.5mm. If it's thicker, it's probably a repro.

lugerholsterrepair · 02-25-2008, 11:15 AM

I collect tools and I think this one is a fake. Fakes are made with a softer material than the Germans used and that's why you see the deep set stamping. Also they do not hold up well as screwdrivers.
You will notice there is little in the way of an edge in the bottom of the hole. This enables the tool to grip the magazine follower button. Without the edge it will slip off.
I would take a caliper and get an accurate measurement. If it's over 10 thousands I would be very suspicious. I am already.
The stamping is so smashed in it's hard to say what it is.
Jerry Burney

John Sabato · 02-25-2008, 11:17 AM

On first impression the tool itself looks original to me, but I can't comment of the accuracy of the stamp. Does the tool have the proper retention groove in the hole to engage the magazine button when upside down? Some reproductions do not have this "thread" like protrusion in the hole, or have it in the wrong place.

John Sabato · 02-25-2008, 11:19 AM

I guess Jerry and I are very close except that he believes strongly that it may be a fake. I can't see a 30 year old tool being faked, because back then I don't think that much attention was being paid to the tools as far as being collectible... but of course that is only my opinion and my esteemed friend Jerry may certainly be right.

Checking the thickness with a micrometer may tell the story... See my next post.

John Sabato · 02-25-2008, 11:29 AM

For a complete set of Luger Blueprints... Order my Blueprint CD in the For Sale forum...

(Yes, a shameful commercial for my CD!... It is the best set of blueprints available for not only the P.08, but for several accessories.

)

lugerholsterrepair · 02-25-2008, 11:48 AM

John You old coot! Thirty years ago was 1978! The older we get the more we lose all concept of time...
Fake holsters were being made in 1946. You can bet tools were not far behind. Why did they make them when originals were so plentiful? Because they could I guess.
1978 is relatively recent. Almost any original tool you see today has a lighter bluing and some wear or rust in the corners. This one is a deep blue, no wear I can see. If it were Weimar or WW1 I can guarentee you it would not look like this even if it were kept in a sock drawer.
Just does not look right in any way to me and my small collection of known originals.
Get a measurement as John suggests and it might ease your mind...one way or the other.
Jerry Burney

nickn · 02-25-2008, 01:23 PM

it is spot on dimesion wise ,about 2.4mm thick, and has the edge at the bottom of the hole

nickn · 02-25-2008, 01:23 PM

2

nickn · 02-25-2008, 01:24 PM

3

nickn · 02-25-2008, 01:25 PM

it is also hard not soft like copies i have seen and tried to use !

nickn · 02-25-2008, 01:27 PM

as for the colour how many mint lugers exist?
what about us 1878 tools ?i have many of those that look new ,no they are not modern copies

lugerholsterrepair · 02-25-2008, 03:18 PM

Nick, If it's so hard, how do you explain the proof being so deep? I just did a test with some mild steel and a mumbering die. I whacked it with a 3# hammer. I could get it to mark OK with a pretty good strike, a good solid heavy strike produced a clear number. No way I could dent the steel like that shown on your tool. The only way I could get a deep strike like yours was on brass....
These proofs were struck with a hand held die and a hammer by the Germans I suspect and that's why many originals you see are lightly stamped.
Do you have any known original tools to compare with?
I fool with tools and tool pockets of holsters a lot in my chosen trade...even ONE insertion of a tool into a tool pouch and the interior mushroomed steel stud on the underside will mar the hell out of a tool as it scrapes the front apon insertion and extraction.
I don't ever see this mark on yours!
Jerry Burney

nickn · 02-25-2008, 04:11 PM

hello jerry
i have a number of ww1 tools ,i only collect ww1 lugers bits, but no weimer or ww2 ones that is why i asked my original question
i have tested the hardness using a file and it compares well with my know originals all be it ones of ww1 vintage .as for the stamp my other proof marked tools are quite deeply stamped also and some have a better ,and more, finish then this one .
nick

nickn · 02-25-2008, 04:15 PM

would it make sense for the tools to be inspected before being hardened ??? it would make the inspectors die last longer

nickn · 02-25-2008, 04:17 PM

jerry i have taken this tool out of ,and put back in ,the holster it came in a number of times over the years

02-24-2008, 12:24 PM	#1
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	droop wing eagle proof on tool please could some one tell me if this would be classed as a police issue tool? or was this droop wing weimer eagle used on all tools issued during the republic? Attached Thumbnails

02-25-2008, 09:17 AM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Nick, There are no silly questions. Just no appropriate answer. Possibly a fake? __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

02-25-2008, 09:48 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Ed Tinker should have a better handle on this answer. He is into the Weimar era guns and accessories. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-25-2008, 11:00 AM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	It could be a Weimar era tool. I've never seen one with just the Eagle on it. Most often there will be a number also. By "around 2.5mm" is it thicker or thinner than 2.5mm. If it's thicker, it's probably a repro. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

02-25-2008, 11:15 AM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	I collect tools and I think this one is a fake. Fakes are made with a softer material than the Germans used and that's why you see the deep set stamping. Also they do not hold up well as screwdrivers. You will notice there is little in the way of an edge in the bottom of the hole. This enables the tool to grip the magazine follower button. Without the edge it will slip off. I would take a caliper and get an accurate measurement. If it's over 10 thousands I would be very suspicious. I am already. The stamping is so smashed in it's hard to say what it is. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-25-2008, 08:02 AM	#2
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	was this a silly question?

02-25-2008, 10:18 AM	#5
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i bought the holster and tool around 30 years ago from an estate sale ,it came with the gun which sadly the family handed in to the police and was destroyed!, so i dont think its a fake it is around 2.5 mm thick

02-25-2008, 11:17 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	On first impression the tool itself looks original to me, but I can't comment of the accuracy of the stamp. Does the tool have the proper retention groove in the hole to engage the magazine button when upside down? Some reproductions do not have this "thread" like protrusion in the hole, or have it in the wrong place. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-25-2008, 11:19 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I guess Jerry and I are very close except that he believes strongly that it may be a fake. I can't see a 30 year old tool being faked, because back then I don't think that much attention was being paid to the tools as far as being collectible... but of course that is only my opinion and my esteemed friend Jerry may certainly be right. Checking the thickness with a micrometer may tell the story... See my next post. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-25-2008, 11:29 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	For a complete set of Luger Blueprints... Order my Blueprint CD in the For Sale forum... (Yes, a shameful commercial for my CD!... It is the best set of blueprints available for not only the P.08, but for several accessories. ) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-25-2008, 11:48 AM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	John You old coot! Thirty years ago was 1978! The older we get the more we lose all concept of time... Fake holsters were being made in 1946. You can bet tools were not far behind. Why did they make them when originals were so plentiful? Because they could I guess. 1978 is relatively recent. Almost any original tool you see today has a lighter bluing and some wear or rust in the corners. This one is a deep blue, no wear I can see. If it were Weimar or WW1 I can guarentee you it would not look like this even if it were kept in a sock drawer. Just does not look right in any way to me and my small collection of known originals. Get a measurement as John suggests and it might ease your mind...one way or the other. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-25-2008, 01:23 PM	#12
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	it is spot on dimesion wise ,about 2.4mm thick, and has the edge at the bottom of the hole Attached Thumbnails

02-25-2008, 01:23 PM	#13
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	2 Attached Thumbnails

02-25-2008, 01:24 PM	#14
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	3 Attached Thumbnails

02-25-2008, 01:25 PM	#15
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	it is also hard not soft like copies i have seen and tried to use !

02-25-2008, 01:27 PM	#16
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	as for the colour how many mint lugers exist? what about us 1878 tools ?i have many of those that look new ,no they are not modern copies

02-25-2008, 03:18 PM	#17
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Nick, If it's so hard, how do you explain the proof being so deep? I just did a test with some mild steel and a mumbering die. I whacked it with a 3# hammer. I could get it to mark OK with a pretty good strike, a good solid heavy strike produced a clear number. No way I could dent the steel like that shown on your tool. The only way I could get a deep strike like yours was on brass.... These proofs were struck with a hand held die and a hammer by the Germans I suspect and that's why many originals you see are lightly stamped. Do you have any known original tools to compare with? I fool with tools and tool pockets of holsters a lot in my chosen trade...even ONE insertion of a tool into a tool pouch and the interior mushroomed steel stud on the underside will mar the hell out of a tool as it scrapes the front apon insertion and extraction. I don't ever see this mark on yours! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-25-2008, 04:11 PM	#18
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	hello jerry i have a number of ww1 tools ,i only collect ww1 lugers bits, but no weimer or ww2 ones that is why i asked my original question i have tested the hardness using a file and it compares well with my know originals all be it ones of ww1 vintage .as for the stamp my other proof marked tools are quite deeply stamped also and some have a better ,and more, finish then this one . nick

02-25-2008, 04:15 PM	#19
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	would it make sense for the tools to be inspected before being hardened ??? it would make the inspectors die last longer

02-25-2008, 04:17 PM	#20
nickn User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 36 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	jerry i have taken this tool out of ,and put back in ,the holster it came in a number of times over the years