Observation on Parabellum ammo

[some_finn]

Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this.

I was reloading 7.65 Parabellum ammo and had trouble getting my pistol to cycle.
First of all, Fiocchi wouldn't work, it seemed to be too mild (wouldn't cycle all the way). Velocity was about 325 m/s (1065 fps).
First I tried a 6 gram (91gr) bullet with Vihtavuori N320, a fastish pistol powder.
I had to keep adding powder until I got a velocity of about 350 m/s (1150 fps) before the gun started to work properly.
But then I tried Vihtavuori 3N37 powder, which is their second slowest. With this powder I only had to load to a velocity of about 330 m/s (1080 fps) to get the gun to cycle 100 reliably.

So it would appear that the pistol prefers slower powders. I guess this has something to do with the internal ballistics (pressure curve) and the way the action works.

I wonder if this "preferance" is a phenomenom known to other people, and if my observation is even valid or just some strange fluke into which I'm reading too much.

If this "slow powder preferance" is a genuine phenomenom, it might explain at least to a degree why Parabellums are regarded as such "finicky" guns in terms of ammunition.

For 9mm guns, some people recommend ammo with 8g bullets instead of 7.5 but I'm not convinced this is a real issue unless the load is "borderline" in other regards.
Also a myth seems to live in the US that Parabellums need hot ammo to work properly. This is of course quite silly, as the original 9mm load was much milder than any modern commercial ammo.

But the assumed preference for slow powders might go some way to explain why some ammo works better than some, even though there shouldn't be a big difference in the claimed performance.

What do you think?

[Ron Wood]

You may be on to something. I am not a reloader, but pehaps some other forum members that are can experiment with you findings and see what they come up with.
With regard to the US "myth", it is reality born out of experience and not quite so silly as you may think. With the powders that are currently being loaded, it requires a fairly hot load to achieve consistent performance. Perhaps the results of your experiment will lead to better loads. Let's hope so. Thank you for giving us this path to explore.

[Hugh]

Simo,

My experience agrees with yours. A couple of years ago when I was experimenting with 7.65 Luger loads, I found that the faster powders were not the best for reliable functoning of the action. I found that Unique, Blue Dot & HS7 were more reliable than Red Dot, HP-38, W231 & Green Dot. I know that you are unfamiliar with some of these powders, so I will list them by a "rating mumber" that they are listed under in the following Burn Rate Chart; http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

The larger the number, the slower burn rate
Red Dot-------------10
Vihtavuori N320---17
HP 38----------------22
W231----------------26
Unique---------------35
Vihtavuori 3N37----51
HS7-------------------59
Blue Dot-------------60

In the US, Unique has been the standard powder for loading 9mm for years. I have found that Blue Dot works much better, and it has become my standard powder for 9mm & 7.65. Incidentally, I got higher velocities out of a 6 in bbl than out of a 4 in or an 8 in!

[lugerholsterrepair]

I agree...Slower powders are better in 9MM loads and .30. I have used Red Dot for years. Almost any other common powder I used left too many powder particals unburnt in the chamber.
Ted Green, a fellow I trust to know what he's talking about when it comes to reloading told me he only used Blue Dot in his Artillery loadings. I never thought you could get enough of the stuff into a cartridge but I guess you can. Jerry Burney

[Sieger]

Hi Some-Finn:

I've reloaded the 9mm Parabellum for some 29 years and I concur with your general observations.

For high velocity, pinpoint accuracy and perfect function I've found nothing better than SR4756 and Power Pistol in the 9mm pistols.

Personally, I've never found Blue Dot all that accurate, especially in my LP-08s. Shooting Blue Dot, at night, is like firing off a flare pistol, if you want to have some real fun.

Unique has never given me anything but so-so accuracy and a filthy chamber and pistol, though it would make the pistol function properly.

For accuracy and perfect function, I'd stay with the medium to slow burning powders in the 9mm.

Your thoughts?

Sieger

[stefanosg]

Anyone ever try "Bullseye". I've recently started reloading and my Dad's always used Bullseye by Alliance. I've done a buttload of .357 and .45, and I was going to venture into the 9mm realm. I probably have several thousand brass casing for it.

[some_finn]

Originally posted by Ron Wood
With regard to the US "myth", it is reality born out of experience and not quite so silly as you may think. With the powders that are currently being loaded, it requires a fairly hot load to achieve consistent performance.

Well, let's say that I think it is kind of a misinterpretation.
It's not that a Parabellum requires hot ammo, it requires ammo loaded with a slowish powder (as this thread would seem to support this view).
Probably ammo manufacturers prefer to use faster powders as less of it is needed.
Also I suspect another reason may be mismatched, poorly fitted pistols that just don't work the way they should. So battering them into submission may help some but I don't think it is a healthy solution in the long run.
One or the other of these issues, or sometimes both combined may have caused the US "need" for hot ammo in Parabellums.

I write "US need" as this idea is completely alien to Europeans and if anything, most Euro Parabellumists think especially mild ammo should be reloaded for Parabellums. Many will not shoot any commercially loaded ammo as all of it is, as I wrote earlier, hotter than the original load.

Originally posted by stefanosg
Anyone ever try "Bullseye". I've recently started reloading and my Dad's always used Bullseye by Alliance.

If this thread is correct and Parabellums like slower powders, Bullseye would be just about the least suitable powder there is, as it is one of the very fastest pistol powders.
Unique should be good, or Hodgdon HS-6, or AA No 5.
I've only ever used Vihtavuori powders so I have no personal experience with these, but the relative burning rates indicate they are between VV N330 and N340 so they should work very well with 115 and 124gr bullets.

[Ron Wood]

some_finn
We are in complete agreement. When I said "With the powders that are currently being loaded" I was referring to commercial ammo, not handloads. Therefore I stand by my original position that the "US myth" is a product of what can be bought over the counter and has nothing to do with all the enlightened individuals that properly load their own 9mm ammo. The notion that the "US need" is "completely alien to Europeans" may be a bit of hyperbole as I imagine there is a tiny fraction of European shooters that buy their ammo rather than reload. For this miniscule population, hotter ammo probably makes their Lugers function better and therefore perpetuates the myth on your side of the puddle as well.

[some_finn]

Of course most people shoot factory ammo in Europe, too.
95% of all 9mm ammo I shoot is factory - including what I shoot in my Parabellum! I just choose ammo that is relatively mildly loaded, around 1080 fps rather than 1180 fps for a 124gr bullet.
Reloading bulk 9mm ammo is completely insane economically, a huge amount of work might save me a cent or two per cartridge.
I do handload special 9mm loads like subsonics as they are a lot more expensive when bought from a store.

But seriously, I have never heard this idea of hot ammo suggested by anyone except Americans. Least of all by Parabellum enthusiasts, who, as I wrote, often completely condemn the use of any modern commercial ammo.

But yes, I guess we are basically in agreement even if it might not seem so at first

[Sieger]

Some_Finn:

You have just made the perfect observation!

When you study the original DWM Parabellum load, you will note that the load for the 123 grain projectile is 5.4 grains of powder with a velocity of 1020.

Slower powders do, indeed, make the pistol function better, because it was designed to operate with them.

If you can buy it in Europe, get some SR4756 (IMR). This powder gives me unbelievable accuracy at 25 yards, excellent velocity (less than 1,100fps) and perfect function with both 115 and 124 grain projectiles.

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally posted by stefanosg
Anyone ever try "Bullseye". I've recently started reloading and my Dad's always used Bullseye by Alliance. I've done a buttload of .357 and .45, and I was going to venture into the 9mm realm. I probably have several thousand brass casing for it.

Hi:

Yes, Bullseye is a fine powder for accuracy in the 9mm. Try 3.7 grains with a properly seated (AOL of 1.173 with round nose) 124 grain projectile for a one hole target at 25 yards.

This load developes less than 1,000 fps. This load may not function your Parabellum if it is heavily sprung.

Stick with SR4756. It will do the deal!!

Sieger

[unspellable]

I view the "Luger needs a hotter load." idea as an urban myth. The change to a shorter 9 mm cartridge contributes to the reliability problem. They are old and sometimes mismatched guns. The magazines have often been dropped once too often. Perhaps the majority of shooter grade Lugers have had their recoil springs tampered with and are out of spec. As Georg said, "The springs have to be right."

I share Sieger's experience, the Fiocchi 7.65 goes aross my chrono at around 1075 fps. The Winchester stuff is a bit spiffier but still not up to the original DWM specs.

As for load vs operation, the pressure curve has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's a RECOIL operated action, not a blow back. If you go to a slower powder while maintaining the same velocity you must use more powder. This will produce a greater impulse as you have to blow the powder gas out the muzzle as well as the bullet. The change will not be great, but if you were at the ragged edge to start with it, might make the difference. A change of 1 grain in the powder charge will be worth a change of about 1.5 grains in bullet weight in determining the impulse.

[stefanosg]

Originally posted by Sieger
Hi:

Yes, Bullseye is a fine powder for accuracy in the 9mm. Try 3.7 grains with a properly seated (AOL of 1.173 with round nose) 124 grain projectile for a one hole target at 25 yards.

This load developes less than 1,000 fps. This load may not function your Parabellum if it is heavily sprung.

Stick with SR4756. It will do the deal!!

Sieger

I loaded about 20 rounds using the Bullseye at 3.7 grains. That worked very nice. I have noticed with Bullseye that their recipe's tend to be a bit on the hot side. 4.9 was the recommended load for 9mm 124g. They do say start 10% lower and work up. I also loaded some for my Glock at 4.3 and 4.7. Both worked in my Glock fine(that's a given), but the 4.7 seemed too hot. I'll stick with the 3.7 for my Luger and 4.3 for the rest.

[Sticker]

Hi

I agree with Sieger. IMR SR 4756 is great for 9mm and works great in my Luger. The Bullseye type powder that I also use (Noble Pistol powder #3) works good for 9mm loads in my Hi-Power pistols but does not shoot as accurate in my luger, nor does it lock the toggle back on the last shot.

SR4756 is accurate and locks the toggle back after the last shot.

FYI: Expro, the plant in Canada that makes SR4756, recommends it for 9mm. If you do a goggle search, you should be able to find it.

Sticker


I'll be nice

http://www.snctec.com/html/en/about/...alleyfield.php

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

I've had great results with Blue Dot, Longshot, Power Pistol and AA-7. I've used bullets that run from 88gr to 147gr. I can say with experience that a good magazine is indeed one of the keys to getting the Luger shooting reliably. I can recommend the Lee Factory Crimp die to improve your reloads as well...

[SIGP2101]

I went down from 4.5 to 3.5 of Bullseye, and only then my Luger started to function properly. In the mean time I replaced all springs in order to troubleshoot my Luger. I had various feeding problems. I guess proper load is the remedy. In a future I will experiment with medium to slow burning powder as suggested here. Will publish results but you will have to wait until springtime. It is â??25 here. Take care.

[DCCUK]

Hello some-finn
This thread's been going for some time but I've only just started loading 9mm Para for both a P'08 and an M35 Lahti - the two 9mils I own here in the UK - and as you're from Finland I thought you may be interested?
The first batch I loaded was with Bullseye and Vectan BA9 (Vectan claim BA9 was developed for 9mm)
Shooting outdoors at 0 deg C - the P '08 would not cycle on 4gr B/E or 4.2gr BA9 but would on 4.2gr B/E (125gr RNL) The Lahti would cycle OK on any of the above....maybe that "accelerator" does work? but I think it may need anew mainspring as it does not always return to battery - i.e. sticks on the last 3mm/.125in - slight thumb pressure and it clicks home - any suggestions? (did not have a chance to Chrono any - next time?)
BTW - My reloads transformed the accuracy of the Lahti .

Keep up the good work

BR DCCUK

[SIGP2101]

H TightGroup & HS-6 are also two powders that work in my 9mm gun nicely. Stay within medium loads and AOL between 1.169, and 1.173.

[John Sabato]

I am sure all of our UK members would be interested in this information. Please do post it.