P.04 Model 1906 Conversion - Page 2

lugerholsterrepair · 12-25-2007, 04:12 PM

Tim, You could be considered correct. It is a mismatched shooter. I think my enthusiasm for this pistol and holster comes from the many intracacies of historical significance left on it over the years. The pistol has much of the original old imperial Navy and with the Weimar markings it tells an interesting story. Just a matter of deffinition I guess.
Jerry Burney

JoeP.08 · 12-25-2007, 09:11 PM

Tim, "One man's treasure is another man's shooter" as with collecting anything. The side plate is the only part mismatched. It was renumbered and because it's on the pistol and numbered in the commercial/navy fashion, how it wound up on the gun is speculation. You state "the German's would not due that". The German's, as with any government during time of war/hardship, did a lot of things. Chapters have been written in reference books on Weimar/Early Nazi conversions. I like the rig because it of its service life during the Imperial, Weimar, and Nazi periods. I believe it fits well with my other Imperial and Nazi Navy Lugers, filling in the gap, but that's my opinion. I like the saying "it is what it is" and use it as one of my collecting mantras.
Joe Pirolo

Tim Reynolds · 12-26-2007, 08:06 AM

Joe,I could not agree with you more.If you look at my old post about my Navy you will see that I concur. My side plate is renumbered in the same fashion with the same style font.I even brought up the same reason as to why I liked mine.It saw service in the Imperial,Weimar,and commercial eras.Mine was exported to the U.S.A and stamped Germany it is a double date also.

GerColctor · 12-29-2007, 08:20 PM

Tim

You really have to see this Luger and it's unique holster. Just to hold in your hands, you can feel them "bleeds" history from the Imperial and Weimar era. Probably saw final service during WW II, as that is in all probability how it ended up in North America, as a "liberated" pistol.

The pictures of the front of this holster don't do it justice.

It is a great find.

Joe

jsmith · 12-29-2007, 10:14 PM

1920 reworks, like Broomhandles are not concidered collectables by some collectors who concider anything that is not now as it was when it left the factory.
Many collectors prefer something with History (Isn't that why we collect). A 100 percent gun, bluing and numbers will always be the most valuable, but historically it probably would have little to tell, if it could talk. That is why the upsurge in the interest in guns in lesser condition, or with legit reworks, bring back papers (collectors used to not worry about such things)
This is true with other things, Hot rods are worth more now than original cars, cars with a patina, true barn finds are popular.
The same trend with guns. Including dug up relics. Some swear against them, as if they all came from grave robbing. then all archeology is grave robbing. Many of thesesame people complain if you have a German pistol, Helmet or belt buckle, wouldn't if it were a tokarev. IMHO, Jim

Lugerdoc · 01-01-2008, 10:32 AM

Joe, Your 1916 dated barrel Navy never had a grip safety, so that was not converted. Is the top of the receiver also marked "1916"? If not, it makes me wonder, as I doubt that they would have wiped that out without also removing the C/M proofing in a rework. TH

JoeP.08 · 01-01-2008, 01:30 PM

Lugerdoc, The barrel is not dated "1916" and it was a converted P.04 Model 1906 1st Issue Altered. The barrel was cut and re-crowned and the P.04 "1916" front sight sodered on. I have posted a picture with the left grip panel off. Look at the frame near the bottom corner of the back grip strap. That hole was the pivot pin for the grip safety. The back strap has the groove or "cut out" where the grip safety fit between the frame and original grip. I have compared this to my "1906" 1st Issue Altered Imperial Navy Luger and it is an undeniable grip safety conversion. Jan Still has documented and photographed an almost identical pistol in his "Weimar" book. I would be happy to post more photos if so desired. Some of the Forum members have seen this gun first hand. I had the rig displayed at the NAPCA convention, this past year, in TN.

Happy New Year!

Joe Pirolo

Ron Smith · 01-01-2008, 01:52 PM

Joe,

That is a cool old Navy conversion. A few years ago these would have been considered junk by any "respectable" Luger collector. However, the history of these pieces now demands that they be recognized for what they are.

Tim,

This is one of my Reichsmarine reworks. When it was converted they actually peened out the 1917 on the frame rail and stamped the serial number in it's place. Grip strap is marked O.190 for the Ostsee station. These conversions were often done in a "catch as catch can" method, just to get them in service.

This is a rare Reichsmarine rework done by Simson. Jan Still has only one other reported in his data base. While it is not pristine and original. It is considered very collectable. Note the Eagle/O proof on the barrel.

Joe,

Sorry to hi-jack your thread, but just wanted to reassure Tim that these are prized pieces.

Ron

Vlim · 01-01-2008, 02:36 PM

Tim,

Because, apart from the side plate, all modifications were done while the pistol was in German Naval service, in order to comply with the changing rules and regulations.

This is not some sort of bubba-contraption made in a USA basement.

JoeP.08 · 01-01-2008, 07:47 PM

Ron,
Those are two wonderful pistols. I believe we have a lot in common as far as our "fascination" with the different variations of this exquisite pistol. Although, some might say our "fascination" is just left of mental illness. LOL! I have a sneaking suspicion your "treasure pile" is much bigger than mine

I agree that the "mint" pieces are nice but I prefer pieces with a little "salt". I have a few "mint" pieces but only because of where they came from. 98-100% scares the heck out of me. These are tools of war and were used as tools. Not all of them came out of the war in mint condition.

Thanks for your replies, Tim, Jerry, Joe F. (GerCollector), jsmith, LugerDoc, Ron, and G. van Vlimmeren. Happy New Year and Good Collecting!

Joe Pirolo

Navy · 01-01-2008, 10:09 PM

These guns with history speak to many of us, me included. While I treasure my very nice "desk drawer" guns that some REMF was issued, the ones that saw service and have had several lives, touch me. But then again, I am sentimental and a historian at heart.

Tom A

12-25-2007, 04:12 PM	#21
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Tim, You could be considered correct. It is a mismatched shooter. I think my enthusiasm for this pistol and holster comes from the many intracacies of historical significance left on it over the years. The pistol has much of the original old imperial Navy and with the Weimar markings it tells an interesting story. Just a matter of deffinition I guess. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-25-2007, 09:11 PM	#22
JoeP.08 User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: CT Posts: 159 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Tim, "One man's treasure is another man's shooter" as with collecting anything. The side plate is the only part mismatched. It was renumbered and because it's on the pistol and numbered in the commercial/navy fashion, how it wound up on the gun is speculation. You state "the German's would not due that". The German's, as with any government during time of war/hardship, did a lot of things. Chapters have been written in reference books on Weimar/Early Nazi conversions. I like the rig because it of its service life during the Imperial, Weimar, and Nazi periods. I believe it fits well with my other Imperial and Nazi Navy Lugers, filling in the gap, but that's my opinion. I like the saying "it is what it is" and use it as one of my collecting mantras. Joe Pirolo __________________ "It's good to be a great man but it's great to be a good man." Joseph F. Pirolo Sr. (1934-2010)

12-26-2007, 08:06 AM	#23
Tim Reynolds User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 40 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Joe,I could not agree with you more.If you look at my old post about my Navy you will see that I concur. My side plate is renumbered in the same fashion with the same style font.I even brought up the same reason as to why I liked mine.It saw service in the Imperial,Weimar,and commercial eras.Mine was exported to the U.S.A and stamped Germany it is a double date also. __________________ If the magazine does not match,it is a mismatched Luger

12-29-2007, 08:20 PM	#24
GerColctor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: CT & FL Posts: 315 Thanks: 2 Thanked 48 Times in 31 Posts	Tim You really have to see this Luger and it's unique holster. Just to hold in your hands, you can feel them "bleeds" history from the Imperial and Weimar era. Probably saw final service during WW II, as that is in all probability how it ended up in North America, as a "liberated" pistol. The pictures of the front of this holster don't do it justice. It is a great find. Joe __________________ It is better to have lived a day as a tiger, then a thousand years as a lamb.

01-01-2008, 10:32 AM	#26
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Joe, Your 1916 dated barrel Navy never had a grip safety, so that was not converted. Is the top of the receiver also marked "1916"? If not, it makes me wonder, as I doubt that they would have wiped that out without also removing the C/M proofing in a rework. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-29-2007, 10:14 PM	#25
jsmith User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 60 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	1920 reworks, like Broomhandles are not concidered collectables by some collectors who concider anything that is not now as it was when it left the factory. Many collectors prefer something with History (Isn't that why we collect). A 100 percent gun, bluing and numbers will always be the most valuable, but historically it probably would have little to tell, if it could talk. That is why the upsurge in the interest in guns in lesser condition, or with legit reworks, bring back papers (collectors used to not worry about such things) This is true with other things, Hot rods are worth more now than original cars, cars with a patina, true barn finds are popular. The same trend with guns. Including dug up relics. Some swear against them, as if they all came from grave robbing. then all archeology is grave robbing. Many of thesesame people complain if you have a German pistol, Helmet or belt buckle, wouldn't if it were a tokarev. IMHO, Jim

01-01-2008, 01:30 PM	#27
JoeP.08 User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: CT Posts: 159 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Lugerdoc, The barrel is not dated "1916" and it was a converted P.04 Model 1906 1st Issue Altered. The barrel was cut and re-crowned and the P.04 "1916" front sight sodered on. I have posted a picture with the left grip panel off. Look at the frame near the bottom corner of the back grip strap. That hole was the pivot pin for the grip safety. The back strap has the groove or "cut out" where the grip safety fit between the frame and original grip. I have compared this to my "1906" 1st Issue Altered Imperial Navy Luger and it is an undeniable grip safety conversion. Jan Still has documented and photographed an almost identical pistol in his "Weimar" book. I would be happy to post more photos if so desired. Some of the Forum members have seen this gun first hand. I had the rig displayed at the NAPCA convention, this past year, in TN. Happy New Year! Joe Pirolo __________________ "It's good to be a great man but it's great to be a good man." Joseph F. Pirolo Sr. (1934-2010)

01-01-2008, 01:52 PM	#28
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Joe, That is a cool old Navy conversion. A few years ago these would have been considered junk by any "respectable" Luger collector. However, the history of these pieces now demands that they be recognized for what they are. Tim, This is one of my Reichsmarine reworks. When it was converted they actually peened out the 1917 on the frame rail and stamped the serial number in it's place. Grip strap is marked O.190 for the Ostsee station. These conversions were often done in a "catch as catch can" method, just to get them in service. This is a rare Reichsmarine rework done by Simson. Jan Still has only one other reported in his data base. While it is not pristine and original. It is considered very collectable. Note the Eagle/O proof on the barrel. Joe, Sorry to hi-jack your thread, but just wanted to reassure Tim that these are prized pieces. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-01-2008, 02:36 PM	#29
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Tim, Because, apart from the side plate, all modifications were done while the pistol was in German Naval service, in order to comply with the changing rules and regulations. This is not some sort of bubba-contraption made in a USA basement.

01-01-2008, 07:47 PM	#30
JoeP.08 User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: CT Posts: 159 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ron, Those are two wonderful pistols. I believe we have a lot in common as far as our "fascination" with the different variations of this exquisite pistol. Although, some might say our "fascination" is just left of mental illness. LOL! I have a sneaking suspicion your "treasure pile" is much bigger than mine I agree that the "mint" pieces are nice but I prefer pieces with a little "salt". I have a few "mint" pieces but only because of where they came from. 98-100% scares the heck out of me. These are tools of war and were used as tools. Not all of them came out of the war in mint condition. Thanks for your replies, Tim, Jerry, Joe F. (GerCollector), jsmith, LugerDoc, Ron, and G. van Vlimmeren. Happy New Year and Good Collecting! Joe Pirolo __________________ "It's good to be a great man but it's great to be a good man." Joseph F. Pirolo Sr. (1934-2010)

01-01-2008, 10:09 PM	#31
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	These guns with history speak to many of us, me included. While I treasure my very nice "desk drawer" guns that some REMF was issued, the ones that saw service and have had several lives, touch me. But then again, I am sentimental and a historian at heart. Tom A