Yet another fraud

davidkachel · 10-04-2007, 04:33 PM

Not exactly another "I found Hermann's personal pistol" story, but close:

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=8254437

And if you look at the photos, the font for the serial number on the gun is not the same as that on the mag. Looks like we manufactured a matching mag.

Mauser720 · 10-04-2007, 05:48 PM

David - Was the "Death's Head" insignia ever used on that type of pistol?

davidkachel · 10-04-2007, 05:59 PM

That I don't know. If I had to guess, I would guess no, but it would only be a guess. But that stamping looks a little too sharp-edged and fresh compared to the one right next to it.
The true giveaway is that he starts out with the old "somebody told me" gag. This is popular on ebay with those who want to cheat people but don't want to get caught at it.
It's the "new honesty". If you don't get arrested, you must have been honest.

SteveM · 10-04-2007, 06:52 PM

The holster is a fake and without checking, the 400 isn't even in the accepted Nazi contract range. It is also missing the Eibar proofs on the left rear of frame. I believe this is/was a very early Astra 400. It has the early military acceptance stamp on the left trigger guard web. It is probably pistol number 371. Somebody has ruined an otherwise very collectable Astra.

davidkachel · 10-04-2007, 09:30 PM

Here's the seller's explanation, quoted verbatim:

"As I stated...the story was related to me from a person who was the nephew of the guy who brought it back. If you read my feedback, I pride myself on honesty and fair dealing. This may have been taken from an officer that was the camp or it may be a bunch of crap.....but I told the story as it was told to me. Take it or leave it...thats the story."

Mauser720 · 10-04-2007, 10:29 PM

In one book by Jan Sill there is a close-up picture of the Death's Head insignia on a Luger. I do not think the photograph in his book looks like the "Death's Head" on this Astra.

Edward Tinker · 10-05-2007, 09:09 AM

is that "SS" eagle real? I have never seen a eagle like that.... rather "worn" looking stamp too...

Ed

Ron Wood · 10-05-2007, 11:30 AM

Those aren't "stamps", they are pantographed.

Edward Tinker · 10-05-2007, 11:31 AM

sorry Ron, my panto-eyes weren't on.

davidkachel · 10-05-2007, 11:35 AM

Pantograph???

Ron Wood · 10-05-2007, 12:34 PM

Pantograph 101

A pantograph is a rotary cutter used to make markings with some precision using a pattern or template. The rotary cutter is on one arm of a parallelogram frame and a stylus used to trace the pattern or template is on another. The arms of the frame can be adjusted to reduce or enlarge the engraving from the pattern. Using a template produces a very clean, even engraving as the stylus rides inside the grooves of the template (that is the way name badges are made using letter templates). When tracing a flat pattern, the resulting engraving is pretty much free-hand and depends on the skill and steadiness of the operator.

On some of the really cheap pantographs, a vibrating tool is used. When magnified, the zig-zag pattern of the vibrating engraving tip can be seen. On a professional pantograph, the engraving tool is a motor driven rotary cutter (somewhat like a woodworking router only on a much smaller scale). A magnified image will show the swirl marks of the cutter and the ends of the lines will be rounded. A stamped mark using a die will have much more squared ends on the lines.

lugerholsterrepair · 10-05-2007, 12:59 PM

Markings on the Englis High Power such as the Company Logo and the Chinese property markings were extensively pantographed. Jerry Burney

Tom Nowling · 10-05-2007, 06:28 PM

Shame about ruining the gun. As it was stated, it appears to be a very early 400 and as such would be more valuable.
Tom

10-04-2007, 04:33 PM	#1
davidkachel User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 784 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Yet another fraud Not exactly another "I found Hermann's personal pistol" story, but close: http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=8254437 And if you look at the photos, the font for the serial number on the gun is not the same as that on the mag. Looks like we manufactured a matching mag. __________________ A heroin habit would be cheaper.

10-04-2007, 05:48 PM	#2
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	David - Was the "Death's Head" insignia ever used on that type of pistol? __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

10-04-2007, 05:59 PM	#3
davidkachel User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 784 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	That I don't know. If I had to guess, I would guess no, but it would only be a guess. But that stamping looks a little too sharp-edged and fresh compared to the one right next to it. The true giveaway is that he starts out with the old "somebody told me" gag. This is popular on ebay with those who want to cheat people but don't want to get caught at it. It's the "new honesty". If you don't get arrested, you must have been honest. __________________ A heroin habit would be cheaper.

10-04-2007, 09:30 PM	#5
davidkachel User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 784 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Here's the seller's explanation, quoted verbatim: "As I stated...the story was related to me from a person who was the nephew of the guy who brought it back. If you read my feedback, I pride myself on honesty and fair dealing. This may have been taken from an officer that was the camp or it may be a bunch of crap.....but I told the story as it was told to me. Take it or leave it...thats the story." __________________ A heroin habit would be cheaper.

10-04-2007, 10:29 PM	#6
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	In one book by Jan Sill there is a close-up picture of the Death's Head insignia on a Luger. I do not think the photograph in his book looks like the "Death's Head" on this Astra. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

10-04-2007, 06:52 PM	#4
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	The holster is a fake and without checking, the 400 isn't even in the accepted Nazi contract range. It is also missing the Eibar proofs on the left rear of frame. I believe this is/was a very early Astra 400. It has the early military acceptance stamp on the left trigger guard web. It is probably pistol number 371. Somebody has ruined an otherwise very collectable Astra.

10-05-2007, 09:09 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	is that "SS" eagle real? I have never seen a eagle like that.... rather "worn" looking stamp too... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-05-2007, 11:30 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Those aren't "stamps", they are pantographed. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-05-2007, 11:31 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	sorry Ron, my panto-eyes weren't on. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-05-2007, 11:35 AM	#10
davidkachel User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 784 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Pantograph??? __________________ A heroin habit would be cheaper.

10-05-2007, 12:34 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Pantograph 101 A pantograph is a rotary cutter used to make markings with some precision using a pattern or template. The rotary cutter is on one arm of a parallelogram frame and a stylus used to trace the pattern or template is on another. The arms of the frame can be adjusted to reduce or enlarge the engraving from the pattern. Using a template produces a very clean, even engraving as the stylus rides inside the grooves of the template (that is the way name badges are made using letter templates). When tracing a flat pattern, the resulting engraving is pretty much free-hand and depends on the skill and steadiness of the operator. On some of the really cheap pantographs, a vibrating tool is used. When magnified, the zig-zag pattern of the vibrating engraving tip can be seen. On a professional pantograph, the engraving tool is a motor driven rotary cutter (somewhat like a woodworking router only on a much smaller scale). A magnified image will show the swirl marks of the cutter and the ends of the lines will be rounded. A stamped mark using a die will have much more squared ends on the lines. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-05-2007, 12:59 PM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Markings on the Englis High Power such as the Company Logo and the Chinese property markings were extensively pantographed. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-05-2007, 06:28 PM	#13
Tom Nowling User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Fla. Posts: 24 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Shame about ruining the gun. As it was stated, it appears to be a very early 400 and as such would be more valuable. Tom