DWM 1920 - police?

[Balder]

Gentlemen,

I looked at a DWM 1920 Luger today. Refinished, all matching sans magazine. One X-out unit marking (S.D. something) on front grip strap, another marking S.D. and some numbers behind the X-out one.
One vertical incision in the frame about 4 mm behind the sideplate (just above the left grip panel), about 1 mm wide and 3mm tall. In the frame, covered by the sideplate, about 5 mm behind the trigger "pin", there is a drilled hole Ã?? approx. 5 mm through which I could see the magazine. Not sure about the exact measurements, I'm going by memory. Schiwy safety. Sorry, no pictures yet. I'm thinking of buying it, can anybody shed some light on marking(s), incision and drilled hole? Thanks!

Balder

[Dwight Gruber]

Balder,

The unit marking is Schutzpolizei D�¼sseldorf. The incision and the drilled hole are for a magazine safety, which was removed from your gun as required in 1937.

What is the serial number (with suffix) and what are the proofs on the gun?

--Dwight

[Balder]

Dwight,

Thank you very much, your quick and accurate response is a fine example of the helpfulness and knowledge prevailing with the members of this board!

I think it has a four-digit number (4 thousand something), no suffix as I can remember. I've never seen the magazine safety, is it known today how many were made? Although refinished, I'm thinking about buying it for the $330 asking price. For comparison, a matching non-refinished WW2 Luger is about $500 and up here.

Balder

[Dwight Gruber]

Balder,

Do a Forum search on "magazine safety" or "mag safety" and you should come up with more info than you ever wanted to know, including pictures.

There is no way to know how many were made. In 1933 these safeties were required to be retrofitted to all Police Lugers then in service. In 1937 they rescinded the requirement, and decreed that all magazine safeties currently in service be removed or otherwise disabled.

From your description you are looking at one of the dated Police pistols made by DWM in 1920-21 which are in their own ns, a, and b suffix range. The inspection and proof marks are expected to be a series of e/ArA4 or e/WaA4 on the right receiver.

The actions of the IMKK shut down this production.

It sounds like a very good deal, and we are anxoius to know about the proofs and see pictures!

--Dwight

[Don M]

I second Dwight's interest in seeing pictures and also think it's a good deal. From a good photo of the grip strap, I may be able to identify the police unit more precisely.

The existence of a Schiwy safety and/or a Walther mag safety on a Luger is a good indicator that it belonged to the precinct police (Revierpolizei) as opposed to the barracked Schupo riot police (Bereitschaften). The barracked police were transferred to the Army beginning in 1933-34 and their Lugers avoided the addition of these safeties.

[Balder]

I got it for $300, serial number 8875. I'd appreciate comments on markings and condition. And yes, my memory regarding number and unit marking wasn't too good.

Balder

[LU1900]

..........

[Don M]

John,

You scored, big time!! Congratulations.

The markings are from the Schutzpolizei of Berlin. The canceled marking indicates the pistol belonged to one of the two Police Inspectorates in Police Group East (Ost). The two Inspectorates in this Group were the city districts of WeiÃ??ensee and Lichtenberg but I don't know which was I and which was II.

Around 1930, these fairly complicated markings were replaced with a simplified form that included all of Berlin's 16-17,000 weapons in a single series of numbers. In your case, the new marking was S.B.13439.

Even though the markings on your gun do not contain an R., I believe it was a precinct police weapon because of the sear and mag safeties. The precinct police markings from this Inspectorate apparently omitted the R.

[Dwight Gruber]

Like Don says, very cool and thanks for the pictures, this gun with e/ArA4 is a good data point. Is this stamp repeated on the barrel?

--Dwight

[Balder]

Originally posted by Dwight Gruber
Like Don says, very cool and thanks for the pictures, this gun with e/ArA4 is a good data point. Is this stamp repeated on the barrel?

--Dwight

Dwight,

I'm impressed that you managed to decypher the stamp, which is also found on top of the barrel, about half an inch in front of the frame.

Don,

Thank you so much for the unit information, I really appreciate it! Sounds like I made an ok deal even if it is refinished. Would the markings and the two safeties make it a rare specimen?

It filled the police Luger gap in my collection, now I only need to get an LP.

Thanks!

Balder

[Don M]

Balder,

Rarity is a relative question. Only about 0.5% of the Berlin weapon numbers are listed in my database of nearly 1900 markings. This reflects the fact that Soviet forces captured Berlin in WWII and few weapons are known in the West. On the other hand, there were about 16,000 to begin with so half a percent is still a decent number (80).

In any case, I think you have a very nice example of a Berlin police pistol.

[Balder]

Originally posted by Don M
The existence of a Schiwy safety and/or a Walther mag safety on a Luger is a good indicator that it belonged to the precinct police (Revierpolizei) as opposed to the barracked Schupo riot police (Bereitschaften). The barracked police were transferred to the Army beginning in 1933-34 and their Lugers avoided the addition of these safeties.

Don,

I am fairly certain that this pistol came to Norway during the German occupation 1940-45; as war booty it was enrolled in the Norwegian army after the war before it was sold in recent years. The refinishing is almost certainly Norwegian arsenal. I guess that would support the possibility of it having served with the barracked Schupo riot police since they were, as you state, transferred to the Heer in the 1930's. On the other hand, if I understand your post correctly, the chances of it having the two additional safety devices would be rather slim if that was the case. If only it could talk...

Anyway, I am most grateful for the information provided. Let's just hope that this doesn't lead me to having another Luger spree.

Originally posted by Dwight Gruber

......
The actions of the IMKK shut down this production.
.......
--Dwight

Dwight,

I have to admit to being in the dark on this one. IMKK?

Thanks to everybody who took the trouble of responding.

Balder

[Dwight Gruber]

IMKK = Interallied Military Control Commission

It was the reglatory and enforcement agent under the Treaty of Versailles, a group of representitives from the Allied Powers the group which actually formulated the regulations for the disarming of Germany, and saw to their enforcement. They arrived in Germany in 1921 and were active until they left in 1927.

--Dwight

[Don M]

Balder,

Your information about the provenance of the pistol is very helpful. It may indicate that some Lugers were modified before their owners were transferred. However, if that were the case, I would expect that the Schiwy safety would have been deactivated as well. Thank you very much for the additional insight.

P.S. They do talk. We just don't understand what they're saying!

[Balder]

Gentlemen,

Thanks to all of you for your comments and information, I've learned a lot about police Lugers these past few days.

It came with a WW-2 era aluminum bottom magazine, would a wooden bottom nickel magazine be correct for this pistol?

Balder

[Don M]

Balder,

I was hoping someone who knows what he is talking about would answer your question about the correct type of mag but I think that these pistols came originally with aluminum bottom mags.