"Original" Nickled Luger

azlaw · 08-15-2007, 09:05 PM

I am trying to learn the art of Luger evaluation. The following ad is on GunsAmerica, and it brings to mind a question for the novice that I am. Notwithstanding the sellers citations to recognizable authorities, I think that the pistol is non-original for two reasons: 1) it is in 9mm, but sports a 1908 frame date, the two do not go together since 9mm pistols were not made in 1908, and 2) it is nickle plated, and there were no "factory" plated guns, except for some truely rare presentation guns that would be very obvious. Am I correct? Please comment.

H

"Luger 1908
GA LISTING NUMBER 976903062
SELLER STOCK # 52415
CATEGORY Luger Pistols
CONDITION See item description.

Price: $3,499.00
Lugar, DWM commercial 1908, semi-auto pistol, serial number 698XX< 9mm caliber, 4' barrel, with an excellent bright bore. This a rare gun of which 14 remain out of a production of 450 pistols. Condition is 98%+ excellent retaing all of the orriginal nickle finish. References are "Imperial Lugers" by Jan C Stil, page 11 which notes the serial number range 69163-70840, and listed in the "World of Lugers" page 150 item 266. A mark not photographed is "8.84" located under the barrel. Over all an extremly rare gun in super condition. Refer to our stock number 52415. Eldon"

var99 · 08-15-2007, 10:23 PM

I'm sure others more knowledgable than I will chime in, but I believe the seller got some facts rights, it does appear to be a rather rare 1908, 9mm Commercial/Military model manufactured by DWM for Military tests, and only 450-500 in this configuration were built. The serial number fits in the range and the proof marks are correct for this model (see Kenyon, pg 158, Still pg 25) The problem of course is the nickle plating which is not original, but Still reports only 14 known, so probably is worth having restored.

Dwight Gruber · 08-15-2007, 11:34 PM

1) 1908 Commercial Lugers, of which this is one, were only made in 9mm. The 8,84 stamped under the barrel is the actual land-to-land barrel diameter.

2) There were no "factory" plated guns. There were no "factory" plated guns. There were no "factory" plated guns. There is no such thing as a "truly rare presentation" Luger plated from the factory.

The series of 1908/1914 Commercial Army were not made for military tests. The German Army tests were made with 1906 model guns, and the modifications required by the Army resulted in the gun which was accepted as the service pistol in 1908.

These Commercial Army guns were originally commercial production which were diverted from the commercial production stream before they were proofed, and put through the Army inspection, proof, and acceptance process. This is demonstrated by the unique c/X, c/X, c/X inspection and acceptance marks on the right receiver and the military proof eagles.

Without knowing if the gun is all matching, it is completely correct. The edges and teh markings look sharp, indicating that the gun was not seroiusly buffed before plating. The price seems high on account of its nickel finish, but this gun would definitely be worth stripping and restoring.

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 08-16-2007, 12:40 AM

It's a beauty, but at least $1000-$1500 too high. Even though rare, the nickle plating knocks the bejeebers out of the value. As Dwight said, it is well worth stripping and restoring (assuming all matching), but unless you just wanted the sheer satisfaction of saving a rare piece, the current price makes restoration prohibitively expensive.

azlaw · 08-16-2007, 03:22 AM

Looks like I'm batting about 300. My interest in this gun is only academic - I'm strictly a bottom feeder when it comes to actually buying anything. So, when were the first 9mm Lugers made? What Lugers will be original 9mm vs 7.65mm?

Also, American gunmakers generally offered (and still offer) "factory" customized guns made to special order. These can bring high values if authenticated. Do I understand that this was *never* done with Lugers? How were "genuine" presentation guns created in Germany?

H

Edward Tinker · 08-16-2007, 06:21 AM

6 questions for something strictly academic....

When were the first 9mm's made --just after the 7.65mm ones were made
What lugers were original 9mm -- those that aren't 7.65mm

Most lugers were made for factory "runs", i.e. they were special order for gov't use, and the "special" order ones were made by commericial firms in the 1920's and 1930's. That said, it is hard for me to beleive that they did not make some presentation models, etc. Some big dealers have had some over the years, unknown (by him or others) if they were original, although they sold as original.

It appears a lot more presentation guns were made up from smaller guns, i.e. Walther PPK type, etc. rather than lugers.

The authentication is the hard part, there are NO factory records that I know of, so anything presented as a presentation model is doubted.

Ed

Ron Wood · 08-16-2007, 10:11 AM

The 9mm caliber was introduced with the Model 1902 Luger. In additon to German Army tests with the 1906 Model, the German Army also conducted tests in 1902 with the Model 1902 in 7.65mm. Up until 1902, Lugers were exclusively 7.65mm. Other than some commercial and contract models, after 1908 Lugers were almost exclusively 9mm until advent of the 1920 Model.

Edward Tinker · 08-16-2007, 10:21 AM

thank you Ron, I did not know, so let my "humor" slide in for the first 2 questions

azlaw · 08-16-2007, 01:04 PM

Ron,

Thank you for clearing up the caliber issue, I have always found this issue a bit confusing in that 7.65mm seems to come and go, and then come and go again. My question then is: why did 7.65mm become popular again after WWI? 9mm would seem to be a superior round in most respects. Was the US market different from that in Europe?

H

Vlim · 08-16-2007, 01:13 PM

Hi,

7,65 made a comeback in Germany after WW1 because it didn't qualify as a military cartridge then.

The Swiss kept to their 7,65 parabellum until well in the 1960s (production of the Swiss 06/29 model was halted in 1949).

The US market was certainly different. US Army officials have always valued the 'stopping power' of a round over the other (ballistic) characteristics. Many countries that tested the luger in the early 1900s found the 7,65's stopping power was not good enough, the basic reason why Georg Luger redesigned the round to 9mm around 1902.

The 7,65 is the better sports shooting round, though.

Rod WMG · 08-16-2007, 05:03 PM

"The 7,65 is the better sports shooting round, though." Does this mean for shooting game?

I'm not being argumentative about this, but, though I've read it before, I can't see why it'd be true. I think it'd be like arguing which is "better" on deer, a .44 mag or a heavily loaded .45 Colt. Both have a large following and ardent advocates.

Depending on the game in question, I wouldn't have a whole lot of confidence in either the 7.65 Luger or 9mm from a typical Luger pistol.

thegundude · 08-16-2007, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren

The 7,65 is the better sports shooting round, though.

Define "sports shooting"...

You must mean target shooting, right? At least that's what we'd call it here in the states.

08-15-2007, 09:05 PM	#1
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 207 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	"Original" Nickled Luger I am trying to learn the art of Luger evaluation. The following ad is on GunsAmerica, and it brings to mind a question for the novice that I am. Notwithstanding the sellers citations to recognizable authorities, I think that the pistol is non-original for two reasons: 1) it is in 9mm, but sports a 1908 frame date, the two do not go together since 9mm pistols were not made in 1908, and 2) it is nickle plated, and there were no "factory" plated guns, except for some truely rare presentation guns that would be very obvious. Am I correct? Please comment. H "Luger 1908 GA LISTING NUMBER 976903062 SELLER STOCK # 52415 CATEGORY Luger Pistols CONDITION See item description. Price: $3,499.00 Lugar, DWM commercial 1908, semi-auto pistol, serial number 698XX< 9mm caliber, 4' barrel, with an excellent bright bore. This a rare gun of which 14 remain out of a production of 450 pistols. Condition is 98%+ excellent retaing all of the orriginal nickle finish. References are "Imperial Lugers" by Jan C Stil, page 11 which notes the serial number range 69163-70840, and listed in the "World of Lugers" page 150 item 266. A mark not photographed is "8.84" located under the barrel. Over all an extremly rare gun in super condition. Refer to our stock number 52415. Eldon"

08-16-2007, 12:40 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	It's a beauty, but at least $1000-$1500 too high. Even though rare, the nickle plating knocks the bejeebers out of the value. As Dwight said, it is well worth stripping and restoring (assuming all matching), but unless you just wanted the sheer satisfaction of saving a rare piece, the current price makes restoration prohibitively expensive. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-16-2007, 06:21 AM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	6 questions for something strictly academic.... When were the first 9mm's made --just after the 7.65mm ones were made What lugers were original 9mm -- those that aren't 7.65mm Most lugers were made for factory "runs", i.e. they were special order for gov't use, and the "special" order ones were made by commericial firms in the 1920's and 1930's. That said, it is hard for me to beleive that they did not make some presentation models, etc. Some big dealers have had some over the years, unknown (by him or others) if they were original, although they sold as original. It appears a lot more presentation guns were made up from smaller guns, i.e. Walther PPK type, etc. rather than lugers. The authentication is the hard part, there are NO factory records that I know of, so anything presented as a presentation model is doubted. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-16-2007, 10:11 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	The 9mm caliber was introduced with the Model 1902 Luger. In additon to German Army tests with the 1906 Model, the German Army also conducted tests in 1902 with the Model 1902 in 7.65mm. Up until 1902, Lugers were exclusively 7.65mm. Other than some commercial and contract models, after 1908 Lugers were almost exclusively 9mm until advent of the 1920 Model. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-16-2007, 10:21 AM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	thank you Ron, I did not know, so let my "humor" slide in for the first 2 questions __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-15-2007, 10:23 PM	#2
var99 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: FL Posts: 114 Thanks: 4 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I'm sure others more knowledgable than I will chime in, but I believe the seller got some facts rights, it does appear to be a rather rare 1908, 9mm Commercial/Military model manufactured by DWM for Military tests, and only 450-500 in this configuration were built. The serial number fits in the range and the proof marks are correct for this model (see Kenyon, pg 158, Still pg 25) The problem of course is the nickle plating which is not original, but Still reports only 14 known, so probably is worth having restored.

08-15-2007, 11:34 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	1) 1908 Commercial Lugers, of which this is one, were only made in 9mm. The 8,84 stamped under the barrel is the actual land-to-land barrel diameter. 2) There were no "factory" plated guns. There were no "factory" plated guns. There were no "factory" plated guns. There is no such thing as a "truly rare presentation" Luger plated from the factory. The series of 1908/1914 Commercial Army were not made for military tests. The German Army tests were made with 1906 model guns, and the modifications required by the Army resulted in the gun which was accepted as the service pistol in 1908. These Commercial Army guns were originally commercial production which were diverted from the commercial production stream before they were proofed, and put through the Army inspection, proof, and acceptance process. This is demonstrated by the unique c/X, c/X, c/X inspection and acceptance marks on the right receiver and the military proof eagles. Without knowing if the gun is all matching, it is completely correct. The edges and teh markings look sharp, indicating that the gun was not seroiusly buffed before plating. The price seems high on account of its nickel finish, but this gun would definitely be worth stripping and restoring. --Dwight

08-16-2007, 03:22 AM	#5
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 207 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Looks like I'm batting about 300. My interest in this gun is only academic - I'm strictly a bottom feeder when it comes to actually buying anything. So, when were the first 9mm Lugers made? What Lugers will be original 9mm vs 7.65mm? Also, American gunmakers generally offered (and still offer) "factory" customized guns made to special order. These can bring high values if authenticated. Do I understand that this was never done with Lugers? How were "genuine" presentation guns created in Germany? H

08-16-2007, 01:04 PM	#9
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 207 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Ron, Thank you for clearing up the caliber issue, I have always found this issue a bit confusing in that 7.65mm seems to come and go, and then come and go again. My question then is: why did 7.65mm become popular again after WWI? 9mm would seem to be a superior round in most respects. Was the US market different from that in Europe? H

08-16-2007, 01:13 PM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, 7,65 made a comeback in Germany after WW1 because it didn't qualify as a military cartridge then. The Swiss kept to their 7,65 parabellum until well in the 1960s (production of the Swiss 06/29 model was halted in 1949). The US market was certainly different. US Army officials have always valued the 'stopping power' of a round over the other (ballistic) characteristics. Many countries that tested the luger in the early 1900s found the 7,65's stopping power was not good enough, the basic reason why Georg Luger redesigned the round to 9mm around 1902. The 7,65 is the better sports shooting round, though.

08-16-2007, 05:03 PM	#11
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"The 7,65 is the better sports shooting round, though." Does this mean for shooting game? I'm not being argumentative about this, but, though I've read it before, I can't see why it'd be true. I think it'd be like arguing which is "better" on deer, a .44 mag or a heavily loaded .45 Colt. Both have a large following and ardent advocates. Depending on the game in question, I wouldn't have a whole lot of confidence in either the 7.65 Luger or 9mm from a typical Luger pistol.