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[KGR84]

Hi,

i am Roman from Vienna Austria.

I would try to write a good english, but i'm sorry if there are some communicating problems.

I'm going to buy a Luger. Unfortunally I don't know much about this pistol.

I can't find any forum in my language, so i hope you can help me.

I don't realy know exatly what i'm looking for. But I have my weaponnary ducoment for a short time, and I don't shot whit many weapon.

But I shot approximately 1000 - 1500 shots with glock, so I can say, this weapon is nothing for me.

Now i'm I thought about it and cam to the end, that i search a historical weapon.

Thera a three weapon which comes into question.

A Tokarev, a Colt 1911 or the Luger.

My uncle hava all of them and sometimes i have the chance th use them. The Colt is to heavy for me, and in Ausatria an '45 shot is very expensive (ap. 1-2 $). The Tokarev is very good, but i think the gauge is to smal for me.

And the Luger is a very goood weapon, i shot very good whit (pleas give me the vocabel for good hitting), and i'm very interesstet in the technic of this weapon.

But in Austria this kind of weapons can be very expensive and so i would plead you to help me.

I can found this weapons from 400 - 6000 $ but i don't know what the weapon exactly do so expensive.

Ther are two important words, which i think make the weapons expensive, in german this are Beschussstempel (which means literally shot stamp) and Nummerngleich (which means literally that nubers match). Can you pleas try to explain me this words.

Would you say is it important for me to by an very expensive Luger for the beginn or would you say it is better, that i buy a sheeper one and after a serveral time.

How are the prices in the USA, are they alss very expensive or are they sheeper than by us?

I don't know the law, but do you think it's possible to buy one in USA an ship it to Austria?

What kind of Luger would you approve me for the brginn?


So many questions, i hope it's understandable for you, and hope fore you answers.

mfg Roman

[Ron Smith]

Hello Roman,

Welcome to the forum.

i shot very good whit (pleas give me the vocabel for good hitting = It was accurate, or you shot it accurately.


Beschussstempel = Proof marks


which means literally that nubers match = All matching numbers.

It seems that you are looking for what we call a "shooter". A luger that no longer has collector value. A re-finished Luger (re-blued) or one that does not have all matching numbers. In the U.S. such a Luger would cost $700-$800.

Ron

[KGR84]

hi, thanks for your answer,

can you pleas explane me what Proof marks and All matching numbers good for?

When i buy a Luger without the proofe mark, is that very bad or schouldnt I don't care about? Which is the price difference between one white and one without?

Means all matching nubers, that all parts are match from the first build? Her the same questione, schould i care about it? difference in the price?

[Ron Smith]

If all numbers are matching and condition is original, not re-blued. It could be worth $1000 to several thousand dollars. There are too many to discribe. Hundreds of different types(variations) and years(dates) are from 1902 - 1970. Some are very rare, some are very common.

Early Commercial (DWM)1902-1908, Imperial(DWM and Erfurt) 1909-1918, Weimar (DWM, BKIW,and Simson) 1919-1933, Third Reich (Mauser and Krieghoff) 1934-1944 . Later they were reproduced by Mauser 1970s.

Nearly all Lugers should have proof marks of some kind.

[Edward Tinker]

Roman, welcome to the forum. Your english is readable, which is much better than my German would be.


The difference in price in a "shooter" vs a colelctable lugers, well, in America we would say, apples and oranges. Each is different, shooters are usually much cheaper, while collectables can cost twice as much.


Ed

[KGR84]

oh, thats obvious, but I would shoot whit.

whats the exactlx difference betweeen The Mauser and the Luger?

Only the year of production?

I see, the cheaper ones are the Mauser, but thats only because they are younger or are there also other reasons in the quality?

On what i have to whatch, if i buy a Luger or a Mauser?

A friend tell me, that he bought his one in Tschechien on a secound hand market.

A other friend mean, that is dangerous, becouse this ones can explode in the face when you do the firs shoot (or while a later one).

Are there some weaken, which i schould pay attention?

Do you call the later Lugers which are producted by Mauser also Luger?

Schould there be any documents present, when i buy one?

[KGR84]

One of the two I found in Austria in the internet is this Mauser:




Zustand: Leichte Gebrauchsspuren


Beschossen: Nein
Beschreibung: Beschriftung: â??1940â?? sowie â??42â?? auf dem Verschlu�?. nicht nummerngleich; Originalzustand!
Zustand: gut bis sehr gut (sehr guter Lauf)


The text above say:


little (dont know the word = Gebrauchsspuren) using marks.

Marking: 1940 and 42 on the (Verschluss I thinks it's the catch)

NOT whith matching numbers.

Original condition (??? is this posible whit not all matching numbers?)

Gondition: good up to very good (very good barrel)




But what I didn't understand is the "Beschossen: nein".

Now it's hard to explaine you what i mean: In Austria we would say if the weapon is "Beschossen" it would get the proof marks.

And the text say, that it isn't "Beschossen".

The price is 450 Euros at an Weaponshop.

Is this price ok?

An other one is this, but there is only a phonenumber and picture, what would you expend for this.



I have got an third offer, but only at the phone, i try to call back tomorrow, the other weapon woult cost 650 Euros.

[Steinar]

Welcome Roman,
If you make a search in egun.de or a similar site, you can find various Luger books written in German. For any new collector, I think that's the best way to start


You listed two Lugers, both shooter and I would expect them to be in the high end of 'shooters price'. The top one looks to have original bakelite grips, witch alone is worth 60-110 Euros on Ebay, magazine possibly in the same price range. So 450 Euro would seem as a good price for it. But I don't know the prices where you live, as with anything else, it's best to check out the market first.
The term 'Luger' is used on any P08 (or LP08, P04 or carbine), and is not connected to the manufacturer. If you are looking at a mismatched shooter, I would not pay much attention to whatâ??s on the toggle. Good luck!

[Dwight Gruber]

Roman,

Zustand: Leichte Gebrauchsspuren = Condition: Very little traces of use

VerschluÃ?? = closure, breech--in this case, the center toggle link

Originalzustand is not possible with non-matching numbers. It looks like the barrel may be replaced.

There are two possibilities for "Beschossen: nein".

When the pistol was made, it was given Beschussstempel by the German army. This Stempel included the Hakenkreuz. This symbol is forbidden in many European countries, in the picture it looks like this has been abgel�¶st.

Guns sold in Austria must comply with the Austrian proof laws. It may mean that this gun has no Austrian Beschussstempel.

â?¬450 = $620 US. This would be an acceptable price in the US, I don't know how it compares to Luger prices in Austria.

Be very careful about the gun in the second picture, it looks like it may be an American Reproduktion in Edelstahl of a Luger, and not suitable for your use.

Lugers in Deutschland were manufactured by DWM, Erfurt, Simson, Krieghoff, and Mauser. Mechanically they are all identical. In the US they are all called Luger, although in Europe they might all be known as Pistole Parabellum or Pistole 08.

Many pistol shooters in the U.S. think that Mauser-made Lugers are the best to shoot.

A WWII-era Luger in the condition shown in the pictures is probably safe to shoot. It is always wise to have it examined by a gunsmith who is experienced with Lugers before you do.

Do not expect any original paper documents with a Luger which you purchase.

--Dwight

[KGR84]

Thanks @ Dwight Gruber, this informationes help me very much.

I looking for some other, unfortunally in Austria it's not easy. But I have a lot of time. I doesn't need I just at the moment. So I have time to inform me and search an good one.

Her is the Luger from my uncle, he doesn't know very much about it, he didn't shoot very often. But the contition isn't very finde. But it have all matching numbers and one or more proof marks. I think it was new black finished a view years ago.

I have only one good picture, I will try to get more. Can you maybe tell me something about it?

[Dwight Gruber]

Roman,

We will need more pictures from all angles, and closeups of alles Stempel. Is there a date? What is stamped on the VerschluÃ???

--Dwight

[KGR84]

He lives 150 miles away from me, so i can't get any pictues. I will ask him, when we meet the next time i will take photos. I try to remember, and think, that he said on the Verschluss is the year 1914.

But what means the both numbers which you can see on the photo?

The firs one is a 1704 and the secound one is a 73.

[Steinar]

The 'first one' found on the upper part of the Luger, is the serial number.
You should find the same number on the front side of the frame with a suffix (letter) below.

The last two numbers from the serial #, is stamped on various parts on the gun. The sideplate (as you refer to as 'second one') comes from a different gun, with a serial that ends with 73 (or is 73).

So the gun above is not matching, but a mix from different guns.
It can still be, and probably is a great Luger.. it's just something we collectors care about

[KGR84]

Sorry, i'm not sure I understand your sentences.

That means the last two numbers of these two "Codes" schould be the same. Otherwise its not matching?

I'am right?

[Steinar]

Yes, to be "matching", the small parts stamped with numbers, shall have the last two digits of the complete serial number.
The complete serial number is found on the front end of the frame + left side of the upper part (known as receiver or barrel extension)

[KGR84]

He, i've found some translator in the internet

Englisch f�¼r Anf�¤nger: (english for beginners)


Laut vorlesen!!! (read loud)

Drei Hexen schauen sich drei Swatch Uhren an.
Welche Hexe schaut welche Swatch Uhr an?

Und nun das Ganze in englischer Sprache! (in english)

Three witches watch three swatch watches.
Which witch watch which swatch watch?


Englisch f�¼r Fortgeschrittene: (advanced english)

Drei geschlechtsumgewandelte Hexen schauen sich drei Swatch Uhrenkn�¶pfe an.
Welche geschlechtsumgewandelte Hexe schaut sich welchen Swatch Uhrenknopf an?

das Ganze wieder in englischer Sprache! (in english)

Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches.
Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch?


Englisch im Endstadium: (at the end)

Drei Schweizer Hexen-Schlampen, die sich w�¼nschen geschlechtsumgewandelt zu sein, schauen sich schweizer Swatch Uhrenkn�¶pfe an.
Welche schweizer Hexen-Schlampe, die sich w�¼nscht geschlechtsumgewandelt zu sein, schaut sich welche schweizer Swatch Uhrenkn�¶pfe an?

...das ganze in Englisch: (in english)

Three swiss witch-bitches, which wished to be switched swiss witch-bitches, wish to watch three swiss Swatch watch switches. Which swiss witch-***** which wishes to be a switched swiss witch-*****, wishes to watch which swiss Swatch?




I think German is easier

[Alx]

This is an excellent FREE automatic (computer machine) translation service site .... which has several options for translating both ways, English to European languages, and the other way ....

http://www.freetranslation.com/

Below is an example of the usable quality of this free service, the above English to German....


Dies ist ein ausgezeichnetes FREI automatisch (Computermaschine) �?bersetzungsdienststelle...., der mehrere Optionen zum �?bersetzen beider Wege hat, Englisch zu europ�¤ischen Sprachen, und der andere Weg....

http://www.freetranslation.com/

Unten ist ein Beispiel f�¼r die brauchbare Qualit�¤t von diesem freien Dienst, das obere Englisch zu Deutsch. ...

You just type whatever in the language you know, select (highlight) the text, then after choosing the translation mode, ( Language to other Language ) you copy and then paste the text into the window, and click on the FREE translation button. Then just highlight select the translation, copy it, and paste it where you want in the post.

Sie tippen nur was auch immer in der Sprache Sie wissen, (H�¶hepunkt) der Text w�¤hlt aus, kopieren dann nach W�¤hlen des �?bersetzungsmodus, (Sprache zu anderer Sprache) Sie und f�¼gen dann den Text ins Fenster, und Klicken auf dem FREIEN �?bersetzungsknopf ein. Dann nur H�¶hepunkt ausw�¤hlen die �?bersetzung, kopiert es, und f�¼gen Sie es ein, wo Sie im Posten wollen.

Since I don't speak any German, it would be appreciated if any bi-lingual readers could give an evaluation of the accuracy of these translations, but I have used the French and Spanish translations with European buyers several times with good success.

LOL, here is the above German translation text, re-pasted into the translator, and the English result .....

"They type, only what also always in the language you know, (highpoint) the text selects from, copy then after selecting of the translation mode, (language to other language) you and join then the text into the window, and clicking on the FREE translation button on. Then only highpoint select the translation, copies join it, and you it on where you want in the post."

I guess it loses somewhat, trying to re-translate back and forth, like taking the square root with a calculator, and then re-multiplying it by itself again, ... but it seems usable still. But I wonder how many times it would take to be reduced to pure gibberish .....

[KGR84]

thx Alx for the tralslationsmaschin, but i tried to feed it whith the text from Morgan Kane. I think it didn't realy understand me

I will meet my uncle this weekend, can somebody maby tell me all exact possitiones, were the numbers are stampt on it, which are important plz?

He not realy shoot often whith his Luger, thats becouse he often has a inhibition. Can that be, becouse the Luger is not matching, or maybe couses the amunition that defect? Do you youse (for you shooters ) an speciale kind of amunition or the normaly 9x19 mm Para?

When I get the photos I will open a new thread, that it stay clearly laid out.

[KGR84]

What do you think about this one?:

knuckle joint and magazine not matching!!!

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=1408808

[bowdeen]

This is a great thread I can't wait for the next post