selling woes

davidkachel · 04-08-2007, 12:01 PM

I have several guns I would like to offer for sale to you guys first, as opposed to selling them locally.
However, it would appear that our guvamint, in its infinite wisdom, has made that impractical.
I sold one gun on this forum and my local FFL charged me $50 [@#%*^(@)$^&] to send it off to AZ where the recipient had to pay another $25-$30 to pick it up. Simply ridiculous and patently unfair to both buyer and seller!
I am reluctant to consider getting an FFL both because I do not have and do not want a store front, and I do not want Uncle Sam's nose stuck in my private affairs (yeah, I know, that ship sailed a long time ago).
In many cases I don't think an antiques and relics (?) license would do either.

What have the rest of you done to solve this problem, or do you just grin and bear it?

Ron Smith · 04-08-2007, 12:10 PM

Dave,

You, as the seller, do not need to go through an FFL dealer to ship it(with the exception of a couple of states). You merely need to send it to an FFL or C&R holder(depending on ATF Regs.). Anybody can legally sell and ship a firearm. An FFL is only required to receive a firearm.

Ron

Edward Tinker · 04-08-2007, 12:12 PM

David, much depends on the gun; if it is a C&R, then you don't need a FFL to ship it to another FFL holder (unless your state demands it). If you had a C&R FFL buyer, you could ship direct to them. If the item is an FFL item, then I believe it has to be shipped and received by an FFL 01 (unless sent back to a manufacturer license holder).

We are talking pistols / revolvers here, not rifles or shotguns.

Value makes a difference, i.e. a $1500 pistol, folks want it and will pay and possibly expect the shipping / FFL prices, while a $200 revolver doesn't seem "worth it"...

Ed

pipeman45 · 04-08-2007, 12:37 PM

I sold one gun on this forum and my local FFL charged me $50 .

Wow. Mine only charges me $10. I owe him big time!

DaveinTN · 04-08-2007, 01:06 PM

David,

I'm faced with the same dilemma. The first pistol I purchased on the forum was sent to a dealer who was a friend of mine. Since he owed me a favor, there was no charge except for the $10 state transfer tax.

However, with the second Luger I purchased, there was still the $10 state tax but this time with an additional $50 fee. All this for having me fill out an application, give a thumb print, and make a call to the registration office. I was a little put out with the $50 "handling" charge but didn't make a big issue about it because the guys who helped me were just employees.

Like you, I don't like the added fee, especially since I'll be buying more guns in the future. If it were my store, I would charge $15-20 and keep my customers' goodwill. Since I don't intend to go back to this store too often in the future, I didn't ask about their "sending" fee for outgoing guns.

It looks like time for me to start considering other options.

Dave in TN.

vtwoodchuck · 04-08-2007, 01:30 PM

Hi, If you are only buying Curios & Relics then the $30 for a 3 year license is worth it. The guys above are right. With the exception of a few states, you as the gun owner can ship to a FFL or C & R license holder in another state. A handgun is supposed to be shipped FedEx overnight. As a seller you should have no cost on your end if you have the buyer pay the shipping. If he returns it to you for some reason, he would have to send it to a FFL 01 license holder only. Then you may incur a charge. Happy Easter. Doug

Ron Smith · 04-08-2007, 01:35 PM

Ed,

That's not correct. Anyone, licensed or not, can legally sell and ship any non-class 3 firearm. However, it does have to be shipped to a licensed individual or dealer. The seller does not have to be licensed. Only the receiver/buyer. This is all subject to state laws, however.

Also, USPS regulations state that handguns can only be shipped through the mail from a Licensed Dealer to a Licensed Dealer.

Ron

Edward Tinker · 04-08-2007, 01:42 PM

Thanks Ron, I can't think of the last 01 item I bought out of state... let alone shipping one to someone (never I think). I have been "forced" to ship a 03 item to someones 01, which is a bit irritating.... And have had them ship a 03 item to an 01 on my end, federal rules be damned

Ron Smith · 04-08-2007, 01:59 PM

Just to clarify... By "Class 3" I am refering to Full Autos, Suppressed firearms and Shotguns with barrels shorter than 18". Anything classified as Destructive Devices by ATF. Not 03 FFL (C&R) guns.

lugerholsterrepair · 04-08-2007, 03:01 PM

David, What type of guns do you have for sale? Jerry Burney

davidkachel · 04-08-2007, 09:34 PM

2 S&W .44 mags, stainless
1 S&W .38 special, stainless, fixed sights
1 1910/1955 Browning .380
1 1908 Colt .380 Hammerless
and possibly a few others, I'm still thinking about it.

lugerholsterrepair · 04-09-2007, 12:04 AM

David, I would be interested in the .380 Colt. let me know! Jerry Burney

Tomathvl · 04-09-2007, 07:44 AM

Aucton Arms and Gun broker have lists of FFL's that transfer guns for a fee. Just enter your ZIP code and distance you want to travel and it gives a list. Give a look, you may find a reasonable price.
Tom

Lugerdoc · 04-09-2007, 08:12 AM

David, If your dealer is also paying the next day air shipping, $50 sounds reasonable. Th

apis mellifera · 04-09-2007, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lugerholsterrepair
David, I would be interested in the .380 Colt. let me know! Jerry Burney

Me too!

Ron Smith · 04-09-2007, 08:48 AM

Is anyone listening???

You do not have to pay a dealer to transfer a firearm, unless your state or the state you are shipping to has regulations that require otherwise.

I spent 32 years with USPS. Part of my job for a majority of that time was to determine if a firearm was mailable. I was often in contact with ATF and Postal Inspectors to translate and coordinate the regulations.

The following is taken from page 176 of BATF regulations.

"(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm
by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm
by a common or contract carrier to a
resident of his or her own State or to
a licensee in any State."

The only exception is when the state that you are shipping from or to, requires a transfer from a Licensed Dealer to a Licensed Dealer.

USPS
Long guns~ Individual to Licensed Dealer.
Hand guns~ Licensed Dealer to Licensed Dealer ~only~

UPS
Long guns~ Individual to Licensed Dealer
Hand guns~ Individual to Licensed Dealer ~Overnight only~

FedEx
Long guns~ Individual to Licensed Dealer
Hand guns~ Individual to Licensed Dealer

davidkachel · 04-09-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lugerdoc
David, If your dealer is also paying the next day air shipping, $50 sounds reasonable. Th

Lugerdoc,
Shipping was not next day air, but rather next week mule.

trigger643 · 04-13-2007, 08:17 AM

Having a quite little experience in this in the last few years... Here's my 2 cents worth. As stated above, handguns cannot be shipped by an individual through the USPS. Long guns can. In both cases a receiving FFL or C&R are required. FedX will USPS store front shipping centers are left to their own if they will or will not ship guns. The central FedX and UPS offices will ship. I prefer fedx. I bring the gun already packaged labeled and ready to go. Delivery information, including the receiving FFL is included inside. I have another copy of the FFL which I give to the counterperson with my completed label. They will only ship Priority Overnight. The Cost is about $40-50 depending upon insurance (I'm looking at a Gold Cup receipt here for $48.00).

Many FFLs are ignorant of the laws concerning receiving guns from individuals. Mostly for their piece of mind I include a copy of my driver's Lisc. and a "Declaration of disposition" or "Bill of Sale" to the buyer along with my paperwork.

Long guns through the USPS cost about the same, however, they need to be shipped Registered mail. This entails using paper tape and I generally have a package store box them for me (great one just next door to the main PO in Littleton CO).

About half the time I have a new counter person either at the PO or Fedx and have to spend some time while they call their supervisor. If I have repeated problems I'll take them a copy of this: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm or the FEDX corporate policies found on their site concerning Firearms....

Chuckc · 04-14-2007, 09:55 AM

Ron,

When you say licensed dealer, does that include C&R?

Stuff I have read in BATF info sez C&R is not authorized to deal. Or am I reading it wrong?

Thanks for your input and information.

Chuck

Ron Smith · 04-14-2007, 10:34 AM

Hi Chuck,

Licensed Dealer is translated to a stocking dealer who buys and sells firearms for a livelihood. This doesn't include C&R.

Ron

04-08-2007, 12:01 PM	#1
davidkachel User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 784 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	selling woes I have several guns I would like to offer for sale to you guys first, as opposed to selling them locally. However, it would appear that our guvamint, in its infinite wisdom, has made that impractical. I sold one gun on this forum and my local FFL charged me $50 [@#%*^(@)$^&] to send it off to AZ where the recipient had to pay another $25-$30 to pick it up. Simply ridiculous and patently unfair to both buyer and seller! I am reluctant to consider getting an FFL both because I do not have and do not want a store front, and I do not want Uncle Sam's nose stuck in my private affairs (yeah, I know, that ship sailed a long time ago). In many cases I don't think an antiques and relics (?) license would do either. What have the rest of you done to solve this problem, or do you just grin and bear it? __________________ A heroin habit would be cheaper.

04-08-2007, 12:10 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Dave, You, as the seller, do not need to go through an FFL dealer to ship it(with the exception of a couple of states). You merely need to send it to an FFL or C&R holder(depending on ATF Regs.). Anybody can legally sell and ship a firearm. An FFL is only required to receive a firearm. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-08-2007, 12:12 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	David, much depends on the gun; if it is a C&R, then you don't need a FFL to ship it to another FFL holder (unless your state demands it). If you had a C&R FFL buyer, you could ship direct to them. If the item is an FFL item, then I believe it has to be shipped and received by an FFL 01 (unless sent back to a manufacturer license holder). We are talking pistols / revolvers here, not rifles or shotguns. Value makes a difference, i.e. a $1500 pistol, folks want it and will pay and possibly expect the shipping / FFL prices, while a $200 revolver doesn't seem "worth it"... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-08-2007, 12:37 PM	#4
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I sold one gun on this forum and my local FFL charged me $50 . Wow. Mine only charges me $10. I owe him big time! __________________ Dave

04-08-2007, 01:30 PM	#6
vtwoodchuck User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Morrisville, Vermont Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Hi, If you are only buying Curios & Relics then the $30 for a 3 year license is worth it. The guys above are right. With the exception of a few states, you as the gun owner can ship to a FFL or C & R license holder in another state. A handgun is supposed to be shipped FedEx overnight. As a seller you should have no cost on your end if you have the buyer pay the shipping. If he returns it to you for some reason, he would have to send it to a FFL 01 license holder only. Then you may incur a charge. Happy Easter. Doug __________________ Doug

04-08-2007, 01:06 PM	#5
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	David, I'm faced with the same dilemma. The first pistol I purchased on the forum was sent to a dealer who was a friend of mine. Since he owed me a favor, there was no charge except for the $10 state transfer tax. However, with the second Luger I purchased, there was still the $10 state tax but this time with an additional $50 fee. All this for having me fill out an application, give a thumb print, and make a call to the registration office. I was a little put out with the $50 "handling" charge but didn't make a big issue about it because the guys who helped me were just employees. Like you, I don't like the added fee, especially since I'll be buying more guns in the future. If it were my store, I would charge $15-20 and keep my customers' goodwill. Since I don't intend to go back to this store too often in the future, I didn't ask about their "sending" fee for outgoing guns. It looks like time for me to start considering other options. Dave in TN.

04-08-2007, 01:35 PM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ed, That's not correct. Anyone, licensed or not, can legally sell and ship any non-class 3 firearm. However, it does have to be shipped to a licensed individual or dealer. The seller does not have to be licensed. Only the receiver/buyer. This is all subject to state laws, however. Also, USPS regulations state that handguns can only be shipped through the mail from a Licensed Dealer to a Licensed Dealer. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-08-2007, 01:42 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Thanks Ron, I can't think of the last 01 item I bought out of state... let alone shipping one to someone (never I think). I have been "forced" to ship a 03 item to someones 01, which is a bit irritating.... And have had them ship a 03 item to an 01 on my end, federal rules be damned

04-08-2007, 01:59 PM	#9
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Just to clarify... By "Class 3" I am refering to Full Autos, Suppressed firearms and Shotguns with barrels shorter than 18". Anything classified as Destructive Devices by ATF. Not 03 FFL (C&R) guns. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-08-2007, 03:01 PM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	David, What type of guns do you have for sale? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-08-2007, 09:34 PM	#11
davidkachel User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 784 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	2 S&W .44 mags, stainless 1 S&W .38 special, stainless, fixed sights 1 1910/1955 Browning .380 1 1908 Colt .380 Hammerless and possibly a few others, I'm still thinking about it. __________________ A heroin habit would be cheaper.

04-09-2007, 12:04 AM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	David, I would be interested in the .380 Colt. let me know! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-09-2007, 07:44 AM	#13
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Transfer agents Aucton Arms and Gun broker have lists of FFL's that transfer guns for a fee. Just enter your ZIP code and distance you want to travel and it gives a list. Give a look, you may find a reasonable price. Tom

04-09-2007, 08:12 AM	#14
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	David, If your dealer is also paying the next day air shipping, $50 sounds reasonable. Th __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

04-09-2007, 08:48 AM	#16
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Is anyone listening??? You do not have to pay a dealer to transfer a firearm, unless your state or the state you are shipping to has regulations that require otherwise. I spent 32 years with USPS. Part of my job for a majority of that time was to determine if a firearm was mailable. I was often in contact with ATF and Postal Inspectors to translate and coordinate the regulations. The following is taken from page 176 of BATF regulations. "(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State." The only exception is when the state that you are shipping from or to, requires a transfer from a Licensed Dealer to a Licensed Dealer. USPS Long guns~ Individual to Licensed Dealer. Hand guns~ Licensed Dealer to Licensed Dealer ~only~ UPS Long guns~ Individual to Licensed Dealer Hand guns~ Individual to Licensed Dealer ~Overnight only~ FedEx Long guns~ Individual to Licensed Dealer Hand guns~ Individual to Licensed Dealer __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-13-2007, 08:17 AM	#18
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Having a quite little experience in this in the last few years... Here's my 2 cents worth. As stated above, handguns cannot be shipped by an individual through the USPS. Long guns can. In both cases a receiving FFL or C&R are required. FedX will USPS store front shipping centers are left to their own if they will or will not ship guns. The central FedX and UPS offices will ship. I prefer fedx. I bring the gun already packaged labeled and ready to go. Delivery information, including the receiving FFL is included inside. I have another copy of the FFL which I give to the counterperson with my completed label. They will only ship Priority Overnight. The Cost is about $40-50 depending upon insurance (I'm looking at a Gold Cup receipt here for $48.00). Many FFLs are ignorant of the laws concerning receiving guns from individuals. Mostly for their piece of mind I include a copy of my driver's Lisc. and a "Declaration of disposition" or "Bill of Sale" to the buyer along with my paperwork. Long guns through the USPS cost about the same, however, they need to be shipped Registered mail. This entails using paper tape and I generally have a package store box them for me (great one just next door to the main PO in Littleton CO). About half the time I have a new counter person either at the PO or Fedx and have to spend some time while they call their supervisor. If I have repeated problems I'll take them a copy of this: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm or the FEDX corporate policies found on their site concerning Firearms.... __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

04-14-2007, 09:55 AM	#19
Chuckc User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cave Creek, AZ Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, When you say licensed dealer, does that include C&R? Stuff I have read in BATF info sez C&R is not authorized to deal. Or am I reading it wrong? Thanks for your input and information. Chuck __________________ Art in metal and wood

04-14-2007, 10:34 AM	#20
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Chuck, Licensed Dealer is translated to a stocking dealer who buys and sells firearms for a livelihood. This doesn't include C&R. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...