Simson Suhl 1933-36

[graf98a]

Anyone familiar with the events surrounding the 1935 arrest of Arthur Simson & subsequent seizure of Simson Suhl?
I am familiar with some aspects of Simson's arrest and his relinquishment of ownership that allowed for Simson to be broken up, my question is related to the disposition of Simson's lines of production and the when & where they went?
The P08 line went to KH I believe is accepted; many surmise the Modell98 capacity stayed with Simson as BSW and later Gustloff foundation operating out of Weimar, however some speculate otherwise (I tend to agree with this, it went elsewhere).
What is relatively for sure is the Suhl facility of old Simson retained their MG line but apparently nothing else made there pre-1933?

Anyone familiar with the fate of Arthur Simson and family, I understand they made it to the United States but not much else except for a relatively recent claim to what is rightfully owed them by relatives (details escape me offhand.. but they made a holocaust claim?)

I understand a book is being done as it relates to Simson P08 production, anyone have a clue as to a publication date? What it covers, if anything beyond Simson P08 production?

[Edward Tinker]

Yes, I know most of this, as Graham and I are writing the book you mention (unless there is another).


We sat down two weeks ago for a week at my house (he lives in Chicago area, I live in the Denver area) and we finalized the book.

We cover about 5 pages on simson history, which was gathered from many sources and used with permission. There is an interesting new book, mainly on Simson motorcycles, a German made book "Simson Legende" that was interesting.

Much is not known, they did continue to produce weapons, although being "broken" up they were renamed and limited. The MG line evidently stayed in production. Much is not known, as the Simsons and upper management escaped, the company diversified (again) and the DDR took over for 40+ years. So most records were lost or destroyed.

The P08 machinery went to Krieghoff and was used until they made their own, then probably scrapped over time.

The family tried to 'reclaim" their property in Suhl and were either paid a small sum or disallowed (local people always liked the family, nazi officials did not, and the later DDR was probably influenced by other local gun manufacturers, but that is conjecture)

We hope to publish in the next couple of months, those details are being worked out with the publisher (s)...

Ed

[Ron Smith]

"We sat down two weeks ago for a week "

Man Ed! Your butt must be tired...

[policeluger]

Ron...I bet Ed's been it training for years...

[Edward Tinker]

lets see retired postal worker and a gunsmith, they both know how to sit too, just like a retired MP (who now does computer security )

[graf98a]

Thanks for the elaboration Ed, I look forward to your book, - I know of no other Simson book naturally, though I hear Dr. Storz new Gewehr98 book has significant information as it relates to early Simson and their relationship with Saxony/Great War period in particular.
I have yet to buy the book (well over $100! But I hear worth it..), I have a thing for Suhl & Simson in particular as well- interesting you say 5 pages gathered from many sources used with permission? Are these published sources?
From experience I have found little in print on Simson (in English anyway) and hardly more on Suhl besides general outline stuff, - lots of loose ends, especially as it relates to their Modell98 line.
I have queried this elsewhere but during your research did you find any information regarding Suhl firms and their disposition of Modell 98 production facilities? In 1915 (4) Suhl firms were producing the Gewehr98 (undoubtedly through significant collaboration with each other & smaller Suhl firms) CG Haenel, S&S/Sauer, Simson & VCS/Shilling.

In 1919 they all stopped producing the Gew98 (only Haenel of the Suhl mfg are for sure known to have produced in 1919) and I have often wondered where that capacity went in 1921/22 with IMKK snooping around? Could have been hidden, sold to Simson or a foreign government but I have seen nothing to support any such disposition? Cates book touches on S&S/JPS World War II production using much collaboration in their Modell98/98k production (Suhl & Zella-Mehlis) and its seems very odd that so much equipment was available to surrounding firms in the mid 30â??s- all surrounding Simson?? Could this be a result of Simsonâ??s dismemberment? Or remains of Gewehr98 capacity?

A bit off topic for a P08 forum but over the years I have found that cross study of related subjects (MG/pistol/rifle producers) often yield far more results than sticking in your primary field exclusivelyâ?¦ naturally these firms like Simson were deeply involved in much else and their process was often interrelated for efficiency/profitability sake.

Also to give credit where credit is due, much of my speculation came from Cates book, and articles from newsletters written by Steen, Huddle, & Wieringa. Donâ??t want to pilfer their research w/o giving credit.

You ever get to the Albuquerque shows? I live in NE Arizona and would be good to meet a fellow Simson collector- though I collect their rifles more so than their pistols (canâ??t afford their P08â??s!)

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
Yes, I know most of this, as Graham and I are writing the book you mention (unless there is another).


We sat down two weeks ago for a week at my house (he lives in Chicago area, I live in the Denver area) and we finalized the book.

We cover about 5 pages on simson history, which was gathered from many sources and used with permission. There is an interesting new book, mainly on Simson motorcycles, a German made book "Simson Legende" that was interesting.

Much is not known, they did continue to produce weapons, although being "broken" up they were renamed and limited. The MG line evidently stayed in production. Much is not known, as the Simsons and upper management escaped, the company diversified (again) and the DDR took over for 40+ years. So most records were lost or destroyed.

The P08 machinery went to Krieghoff and was used until they made their own, then probably scrapped over time.

The family tried to 'reclaim" their property in Suhl and were either paid a small sum or disallowed (local people always liked the family, nazi officials did not, and the later DDR was probably influenced by other local gun manufacturers, but that is conjecture)

We hope to publish in the next couple of months, those details are being worked out with the publisher (s)...

Ed

[Edward Tinker]

I do not collect K98's, although I know that Simson made them in WW1. I know they reworked many carbines and rifles after 1918, but that is about it.

One of our sources was a translation from a german magazine (the author of the article gave us permission to use sections; the others were from the city of Suhl, and the book Simson Legende, both translated from German and just used as sources of basic information. Graham traveled to Suhl Germany in October and met several folks that helped us out.

As you said, cross traveling for info is good to do. I have checked around for MG Simson owners, had no luck. Have received almost the same amount of info on K98 / rifles (a bit, but not much).


There reall is so much, *not* known about Simson. I am sure more information will come to light in the next couple of years

Ed

[Vlim]

Hi Ed,

Don't know if you saw it, but I have a 1937 version of Richard Marholdt's 'Waffenlexicon'. It has several pages on Simson, BSW and some of their products including the Simson semi-auto pistol.

[graf98a]

I assume in German? By 1937 Simson was utterly taken over and potentially might elaborate on the dismemberment of Simson?
The first production for "BSW" of the 98k was in 1937 - Simson's/BSW first venture into the short rifle/98k (previous as Ed suggests they produced the Gewehr98 from 1915-1918; and Kar98b from 1924-1931 or so (some issues over this start & end as they, as with their P08 line stopped dating their product in 1926 and I have seen as early as 1921 suggested for a start and early 30's for an end) - the reworking done by Simson & with Simson bits also give collectors issues pinning them down.

Is this a catalog? Their line of pistols from the 20's are scarce I believe as I have only "seen" pictures of them, not sure of how many Modells they produced but at least 2 I know of.. well besides their P08 line of course.

[Edward Tinker]

Vlim, I am not sure what Richards Waffenlxicon is (obviously weapon glossary), but unsure what it is?


graf, you know more than me about he rifles! There is very little known about the vest pockets either...


ed