Interesting Dutch Vickers

[Lugers down under]

Hi Guys,
John Sabato suggested that I should post this interesting Dutch Vickers Luger which I purchased here in New Zealand earlier this year.

I bought the gun in an auction (as I buy most of my Lugers down here) but in this case the vendor is quite well known to both me and some members of the forum although he is a New Zealander living here in New Zealand and highly respected.

The gun is in pristine condition(for a Dutch Vickers contract) but is quite different from any ever seen before.

It has no numbers whatsoever on any parts and has no proof marks and even the Queen Wilhelmina acceptance mark is missing.

The side plate shown is only fitted so as to give it a NZ registration number,
The original side plate has no number.









Here is the other side of the gun.






I hope that you note the pristine condition of this gun and the absence of any numbers or proofs.
I hope you also notice the rough checkering of the grips.

This next photo is of the front of the frame and underside of the barrel and frame front. Please note the absence of any numbers.





Lastly a photo of the grips which if not made in Batavia, I would bet my whole Luger collection on.








The gun has been in New Zealand since the late 1960's and I have proved was part of the Dr Ongley collection sold here in NZ in the 1970's. It was listed in the catalogue of that auction.

Doctor Ongley was a famous collector who pioneered Luger and Broomhandle collecting in NZ in the 60's and 70's.

This does means it has been here in New Zealand for at least 30 to 40 years.

I would be very interested in your comments,

Kind wishes to all.

Murray

[Dwight Gruber]

Murray,

Would it be possible to see a sharp, well-lit, extreme closeup of the toggle stamp?

--Dwight

[Lugers down under]

Dwight,
I don't have the best camera for very close up so this is the best I can do for you.



Out of interest, the format and lettering is identical to my other Vickers but on the one above the letters are deeper, almost as if it was one of the first stamped guns.
Regards
Murray

[Vlim]

Murray,

Interesting pistol. It appears to have been built up from spare parts. Does the extractor have 'geladen' on both sides?

[Lugers down under]

Yes,
The extractor does have "Geladen" on both side, The grips have GS stamped inside.
I share the same view that it was most likely built up from spare (un-numbered) parts in one of the arsenals. There were a number of New Zealanders as part of the relief force in the indies after the surrender by Japan. I think that Dr Ongly was attached to the NZ forces.

I also think it is an interesting piece and seeing the original Vickers contract guns were built from spare parts (DWM) to all intents and purposes it is a Vickers gun and "one of a kind."

What is also interesting is the lack of numbers and acceptance marks especially on the frame , receiver and toggle. I can accept no numbers on the barrel (the arsenal did had spare un-numbered barrels)

I would be interested in your views

Regards
Murray.

[Vlim]

Hi,

They would have had spare frames, receivers, etc... and one can assume that those were unnumbered too. They would normally be numbered to the gun if the part in question was replaced.

[John Sabato]

I concur with Gerben V.G.'s hypothesis on the unnumbered parts gun Murray... The frame looks unaltered to me... This pistol is a real find... and it is too bad that it has the million dollar chip in the left grip....

Just curious, are there any marks inside the original sideplate?

[Lugers down under]

Hello John,
There are no marks inside the side plate. There are one or two small manufacturing process marks inside the frame.

How many such guns exist is a real unknown but what puzzles me, is would there have been any parts left over after WW2 and after the Japs cleaned out the Arsenals.
Gosh, I wish it could talk to me just a little louder!

I wonder what Guus de Vries would have to say. On Page 134 of his book there is comments by the Dutch author Dcibel who suggest that Vickers made some replacement guns for some that were rejected from the contract. If that was the case, they would possibly have no numbers, but would have been numbered and given the Wilhelmina acceptance mark when issued. May be this is one of those Lugers. We also know that Vickers supplied them with out grips, they being made in the Arsenals in the Indies.

To be frank, the gun feels too good to have been made up from parts.
It is really crisp and tight like a brand new Luger. If it had been made up of parts one would expect some of the parts to have been "used" this is certainly not the case with this gun. All of the parts are pristeen.

One will never know.

Regards
Murray.

[John Sabato]

Murray, here is something to consider...

...about 35 years ago, in a state not far from here, there was a young soldier stationed at a military base whose first assignment was as a cryptographic equipment repairman... naturally these machines were secret in nature when assembled and working, but almost without exception, the individual parts were available through normal channels in the supply system... so late one night while working the midnight shift in a very large repair shop, he gets the idea, that if he ordered one each of the parts of a particular machine that was bothersome to work on, he could create a test bench machine with which to troubleshoot defective parts, and he begins to order a half dozen parts at a time, throwing them in a box when they arrived... In the mean time, he constructs a jig out of wood on which to mount everthing and have his test bed environment ready for finally assembly... finally, after a few months, it was time to order the last remaining part, the frame of the equipment (that would normally be serially numbered on a plate attached with screws... and yes, even that plate was available through the supply channels in a blank state)... whle filling out the requisition forms, the repairshop was visited by none other than the crypto security officer who needed something fixed... recognizing the arrangement of equipment on the bench he inquired as to whose equipment was being working on, since he had not heard that there was a machine of this type broken... my (oops, I mean the soldier's) reply was that "nothing was broken, this was just a test bed being constructed to work on problem parts from other machines."

Well, you would have thought that the Russians had just nuked the capital of Idaho... He and the young solder had a long one direction conversation about how supply channels should not be used to collect parts to create an unaccountable secret machine! ... the young soldier then spent the rest of the night filling out forms to return each and every one of those parts... and of course the order for the base frame of the machine never got completed... BUT if that visit had never taken place, there would have been an unaccountable secret machine with no numbers in existence... shortly thereafter, procedures changed so that any major assemblies for secret machines had to be approved by at least 2 other people before the order was placed into the system...

Moral of the story? Never underestimate the ingenuity and craftiness of the resourceful soldier... An unmarked firearm in an arms room, made up of parts ordered one at a time and painstakingly fitted together by a bored and underworked unit armorer?

Not a common occurrence, but certainly not beyond the pale of possibility...

Congrats again Murray on such a fine piece as this Vickers... and keep this story to yourself... I wouldn't want the young soldier (now an old retired soldier) to hear about it and be embarrassed.

So when are you coming back to the Washington DC area?

[Vlim]

Hi John,

Nice story. I also remember that the US army had so much spare parts available, that they were able to buid a number of new Bell helicopters from scratch.

Murray: The guys at the Dutch 'Geweermakersschool' were good craftsmen. They were also excellent refinishers, as most pistols were arsenal refinished every 7 years. So they had the skills and the tools to produce a pistol that looked better than new.

[the gunman]

John I love that story. Gave me quite a chuckle as I know of a simular one reguarding an air compressor.

[John Sabato]

I have two more almost as good Richie...

When in college in the spring of 1966, I was in the ROTC Armsroom cleaning my M1 Garand, one of about 400 that the ROTC detachment possessed, when I realized that the standard issue weapons racks were NOT secure even with the padlocked bar installed behind the front sight... I proceeded to demonstrate to a doubting Regular Army NCO that if I pulled the trigger guard and separated the stock from the receiver I already had two main subassemblies, and then all I had to do was unscrew the gas plug and remove the gas housing from the barrel to get the majority of the pieced out of the rack... finally with the barrel removed, there was enough play behind the locking bar to remove the last remaining piece, the gas houseing and I had the rifle reassembled in about 60 additional seconds... 30 minutes later I was re-demonstrating my feat to the Commander of the ROTC detachment... within 30 days, engineers were sent to the college to modify all the weapons racks so that a steel bar prevented the removal of the trigger group...

I didn't finish school that year... and then in 1967 after being drafted, and on active duty, I discovered that all the M14 racks had recently been modified to prevent exactly the same kind of unauthorized removal from a locked weapons rack...

You would think that some lessons learned would be remembered, but oh no... in 1977 while stationed in Italy, I was in charge of a sensitive facility that had two racks of M-16A1 rifles in racks for rapid issue when I discovered that the racks had a similar vulnerability... the rifles where kept in place by a large angle iron installed below the rear sight...

Having done a lot of gunsmithing on AR-15 rifles, I was very familiar with the methods and tools for their detailed dissassembly... I bet the Officer in charge of the facility that I could remove one of the rifles in less than 5 minutes without the racks or the rifle being unlocked or damaged... he said that if I could do that, he would give me a 3 day pass, and pay for a steak dinner... The steak was delicious... I simply removed the handguards of the M-16, then pulled the disassembly pins and removed the lower receiver... finally I tood a nail of the appropriate size and held it in a pair of needle-nose pliers and used it as a drift punch on the roll pin that held on the front sight assembly... a couple of whacks with a hammer handle and I had removed the upper receiver and barrel from the rack and was able to get the front sight assembly out now that the barrel had left enough room in the space provided for the rifle sights and barrel... Re assembly took about 3 minutes because the roll pin was a little stubborn going back in, but that same afternoon, I had to repeat the process while the local MI and CID guys watched and photographed the process...

the result?... the next generation of rifle racks were manufactured with additional brackets and locking bars to prevent my removal process from ever working again... I will never forget the look on that officer's face when I handed him the reassembled rifle...

[the gunman]

Wonderful story John thank you for sharing it. Probably the best steak you have ever had in your life.

[DaveinTN]

After reading about the pistols, helecopters, code devices, rifles, etc., I remembered another "One Piece At A Time" situation closer to home.

In 1976, Johnny Cash released his hit song, "One Piece At A Time." I had been up in Hendersonville some years ago and had taken a photo of the car. Unfortunately, I can't find the picture today.... but thanks to the internet, I have a replacement. In searching however, I was surprised to learn that there were actually two cars built one piece at a time.

For your enjoyment and enrichment, here they are.

Dave in TN.

[Lugerdoc]

You might want to check out the Buck Owens tune "Welfare Cadilac". TH