Need help on a 1914 purchase

rlbrutke · 11-22-2006, 01:08 PM

Hello...I am new to this forum and would like to see if anyone out there can provide me with some info and a 1914 DWM Luger that I am thinking about purchasing. Here is the info that was given to me by the gun dealer.

DWM Luger with a date stamped 1914 on the top of the barrel.
4" version with stock lug.
All serial numbers are matching (xx28).
28 is also stamped on the gun many times.
Wooden clip is also stamped xx28.

The thing that bothers me, and what is prompting this post, is that on the underside of the barrel where the serial number xx28 is stamped, there is also another 4 digit number above it stamped into the barrel. It reads 8525 which I am assuming is another serial number. Could this be a reworked barrel that was fit to this gun, then stamped with the new serial number of xx28?

Also, I am confused about the stamps on the right side of the barrel. There appears to be four inspections stamps (all in a row). The third stamp in the sequence is the number 63 that has been stamped over with an eagle. The second appears to also be a 60's number (not sure but looks like 61 or even 6D) then has been stamped over that number with an eagle. (I will try to include a pic). The 1st and 4th stamps I am not sure of.

Any ideas or thoughts would be helpful. I am highly interested in purchasing this pistol, but what I want is a matched number 1914 from WWI, not a WWII rework. I also do not want a double stamped barrel.

Thanks in advance for any help on this!

rlbrutke · 11-22-2006, 01:15 PM

Not sure how to upload the photo, but maybe this will work :

Edward Tinker · 11-22-2006, 01:16 PM

Lonnie, welcome to the forum.

I think we'd need to see pictures. I have seen new barrels with a serial number, but have not seen a renumbered, as they would just put it on. If it was under, i.e. towards the frame and 3 digits, i.e. 8,82 then it would be correct, above it, hmmm

That is the normal eagle proof, so it is just fine. The crown over a letter is what the others are.

Also, it is unusual to find matched magazines with a gun, so that might not be the criteria you should judge for a "matched" gun,

How much are they asking? I ask because buying books is more important than just buying a gun. In lugers it is easy to get taken by lack of knowledge

Ed

rlbrutke · 11-22-2006, 01:26 PM

Here are some more pics....Maybe these will help to see if it is an actual WWI 1914 and not a re-work. Do you think this would be a good purchase. Also, any other comments are greatly welcome.
Thanks! One of the pics shows that double stamp I was talking about. This is why I thought it my be a double stamped serial number on the bottom of the barrel.

rlbrutke · 11-22-2006, 01:33 PM

Sorry, as for the second part of your question....The dealer wants close to $1000 for this gun...I am thinking of countering with $900 out the door. I have spent the last two days researching out the inspection stamps, but still quite confused. I will try to make it in today to see if the local bookstore has any reading material on the subject. I would like to find a book that shows and explains the inspection stamps such as the eagle over 63.

Thanks for the reply, Ed!

Edward Tinker · 11-22-2006, 01:54 PM

ahh, the BO25 is the barrel hardness (it is beleived), in 1914 they used Bohel Steel (I am not remembering the name right), thus marked with the barrel hardness and the companies initials.

I think for the condition, that $800 might be okay, a 1K is too much, as the light pitting can hurt value later.

Ed

Navy · 11-22-2006, 02:09 PM

Based on what I saw at Chantilly this weekend, $800 may be about 2bills too high....there simply isn't much demand for these beater guns.

Tom A

rlbrutke · 11-22-2006, 02:19 PM

Tom,
Even though it has matching numbers on the clip? I am being told that that adds 50% to the blue book value. At least that is what I'm being told. If that is not the case, and it is not rare to find all matching numbers, then $600 to $700 is probably more reasonable. The pitting doesn't bother me that much, as I like authentic vs. reworked and re-blued.

Thanks for your comments!

Edward Tinker · 11-22-2006, 02:24 PM

2 matching mags "supposedly" add 50% value, one matching mag is maybe 20%, and LOTS of faked matched mag to guns out there.

Rare is a hard term.. on ebay, lots of things are rare, and aren't. How many 1914's were made, as compared to a 1910? That is rarer, it is rarer to find a 1910 with matching magazine than a 1914...

BTW, what the hell is the stamping on the frame rail?

Ed

rlbrutke · 11-22-2006, 02:32 PM

Ed, I understand your thoughts on "rare". Kinda like saying that I'm an expert on the subject of Luger's....This is true only if the definition of an expert is as follows... An "ex" is a has been, and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure. Kinda feels like the dealer is more proud of what he has, than I will be of it once I've purchased it.

As for the marking on the rail...please elaborate, as you are talking to an "ex-spurt" here.

Edward Tinker · 11-22-2006, 02:34 PM

Lugers aren't usually marked here, can you provide a full picture of this marking?

Ed

rlbrutke · 11-22-2006, 02:36 PM

I'll email the dealer and see if he can send me a pic. What are your initial thoughts on this marking?

Edward Tinker · 11-22-2006, 02:43 PM

since it is not seen, a marking by a GI.... The marking is in an odd location to be a unit marking (usually on grip strap), police marking (same with a few exceptions), etc.

The stylized marking it shows is interesting... But unlikely to add value, unless it sparks interest in someone who collects what ever it says...

Ed

policeluger · 11-22-2006, 02:52 PM

Listen to Tom above, should you want to sell it someday, the condition will play into the asking price, and currently it is way to steep for a gun in this condition.

rlbrutke · 11-22-2006, 02:53 PM

Looking further into the markings on this website....It looks like the inspections stamps on the side of this luger can be best categorized under #15 on the Proof 2 page under the markings link on this website. From my blurry picture and no knowledge first glance at these markings, the third stamp from the right looked like and Eagle stamped directly over a 63. Shows what I know...I guess its all German to me.

As for the other markings on the rail...I am having the dealer email me a pic of that section of the gun even as I type this. I'll be back.

rlbrutke · 11-22-2006, 02:54 PM

I'm going that direction also, Policeluger! Seems kinda steep now that I'm doing more research...Thank God for Forum's!

Still researching however!

marshombre · 11-22-2006, 05:22 PM

Ed, those aren't markings on the frame rail, they're just the right receiver proofs viewed from a different angle. Lonnie, I think it would be wise to look for something else, too much corrosion and pitting at any price. MR

Edward Tinker · 11-22-2006, 05:44 PM

MR, I think you are right! Kinda an optical illussion...

hah, hah, good one on me!

dz · 11-22-2006, 06:12 PM

Pay no more than you would for a shooter. David

Edward Tinker · 11-22-2006, 08:53 PM

Lots of pictures;

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=60752142

11-22-2006, 02:34 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Lugers aren't usually marked here, can you provide a full picture of this marking? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-22-2006, 02:43 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	since it is not seen, a marking by a GI.... The marking is in an odd location to be a unit marking (usually on grip strap), police marking (same with a few exceptions), etc. The stylized marking it shows is interesting... But unlikely to add value, unless it sparks interest in someone who collects what ever it says... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-22-2006, 05:22 PM	#17
marshombre User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: W Central FL Posts: 98 Thanks: 13 Thanked 20 Times in 11 Posts	Ed, those aren't markings on the frame rail, they're just the right receiver proofs viewed from a different angle. Lonnie, I think it would be wise to look for something else, too much corrosion and pitting at any price. MR __________________ Tempus edax rerum

11-22-2006, 08:53 PM	#20
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Lots of pictures; http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=60752142 __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-22-2006, 01:08 PM	#1
rlbrutke User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need help on a 1914 purchase Hello...I am new to this forum and would like to see if anyone out there can provide me with some info and a 1914 DWM Luger that I am thinking about purchasing. Here is the info that was given to me by the gun dealer. DWM Luger with a date stamped 1914 on the top of the barrel. 4" version with stock lug. All serial numbers are matching (xx28). 28 is also stamped on the gun many times. Wooden clip is also stamped xx28. The thing that bothers me, and what is prompting this post, is that on the underside of the barrel where the serial number xx28 is stamped, there is also another 4 digit number above it stamped into the barrel. It reads 8525 which I am assuming is another serial number. Could this be a reworked barrel that was fit to this gun, then stamped with the new serial number of xx28? Also, I am confused about the stamps on the right side of the barrel. There appears to be four inspections stamps (all in a row). The third stamp in the sequence is the number 63 that has been stamped over with an eagle. The second appears to also be a 60's number (not sure but looks like 61 or even 6D) then has been stamped over that number with an eagle. (I will try to include a pic). The 1st and 4th stamps I am not sure of. Any ideas or thoughts would be helpful. I am highly interested in purchasing this pistol, but what I want is a matched number 1914 from WWI, not a WWII rework. I also do not want a double stamped barrel. Thanks in advance for any help on this!

11-22-2006, 01:15 PM	#2
rlbrutke User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not sure how to upload the photo, but maybe this will work :

11-22-2006, 01:16 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Lonnie, welcome to the forum. I think we'd need to see pictures. I have seen new barrels with a serial number, but have not seen a renumbered, as they would just put it on. If it was under, i.e. towards the frame and 3 digits, i.e. 8,82 then it would be correct, above it, hmmm That is the normal eagle proof, so it is just fine. The crown over a letter is what the others are. Also, it is unusual to find matched magazines with a gun, so that might not be the criteria you should judge for a "matched" gun, How much are they asking? I ask because buying books is more important than just buying a gun. In lugers it is easy to get taken by lack of knowledge Ed

11-22-2006, 01:26 PM	#4
rlbrutke User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are some more pics....Maybe these will help to see if it is an actual WWI 1914 and not a re-work. Do you think this would be a good purchase. Also, any other comments are greatly welcome. Thanks! One of the pics shows that double stamp I was talking about. This is why I thought it my be a double stamped serial number on the bottom of the barrel.

11-22-2006, 01:33 PM	#5
rlbrutke User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry, as for the second part of your question....The dealer wants close to $1000 for this gun...I am thinking of countering with $900 out the door. I have spent the last two days researching out the inspection stamps, but still quite confused. I will try to make it in today to see if the local bookstore has any reading material on the subject. I would like to find a book that shows and explains the inspection stamps such as the eagle over 63. Thanks for the reply, Ed!

11-22-2006, 01:54 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	ahh, the BO25 is the barrel hardness (it is beleived), in 1914 they used Bohel Steel (I am not remembering the name right), thus marked with the barrel hardness and the companies initials. I think for the condition, that $800 might be okay, a 1K is too much, as the light pitting can hurt value later. Ed

11-22-2006, 02:09 PM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Based on what I saw at Chantilly this weekend, $800 may be about 2bills too high....there simply isn't much demand for these beater guns. Tom A

11-22-2006, 02:19 PM	#8
rlbrutke User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, Even though it has matching numbers on the clip? I am being told that that adds 50% to the blue book value. At least that is what I'm being told. If that is not the case, and it is not rare to find all matching numbers, then $600 to $700 is probably more reasonable. The pitting doesn't bother me that much, as I like authentic vs. reworked and re-blued. Thanks for your comments!

11-22-2006, 02:24 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	2 matching mags "supposedly" add 50% value, one matching mag is maybe 20%, and LOTS of faked matched mag to guns out there. Rare is a hard term.. on ebay, lots of things are rare, and aren't. How many 1914's were made, as compared to a 1910? That is rarer, it is rarer to find a 1910 with matching magazine than a 1914... BTW, what the hell is the stamping on the frame rail? Ed

11-22-2006, 02:32 PM	#10
rlbrutke User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, I understand your thoughts on "rare". Kinda like saying that I'm an expert on the subject of Luger's....This is true only if the definition of an expert is as follows... An "ex" is a has been, and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure. Kinda feels like the dealer is more proud of what he has, than I will be of it once I've purchased it. As for the marking on the rail...please elaborate, as you are talking to an "ex-spurt" here.

11-22-2006, 02:36 PM	#12
rlbrutke User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'll email the dealer and see if he can send me a pic. What are your initial thoughts on this marking?

11-22-2006, 02:52 PM	#14
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Listen to Tom above, should you want to sell it someday, the condition will play into the asking price, and currently it is way to steep for a gun in this condition.

11-22-2006, 02:53 PM	#15
rlbrutke User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looking further into the markings on this website....It looks like the inspections stamps on the side of this luger can be best categorized under #15 on the Proof 2 page under the markings link on this website. From my blurry picture and no knowledge first glance at these markings, the third stamp from the right looked like and Eagle stamped directly over a 63. Shows what I know...I guess its all German to me. As for the other markings on the rail...I am having the dealer email me a pic of that section of the gun even as I type this. I'll be back.

11-22-2006, 02:54 PM	#16
rlbrutke User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm going that direction also, Policeluger! Seems kinda steep now that I'm doing more research...Thank God for Forum's! Still researching however!

11-22-2006, 05:44 PM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	MR, I think you are right! Kinda an optical illussion... hah, hah, good one on me!

11-22-2006, 06:12 PM	#19
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 260 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	Pay no more than you would for a shooter. David