No Date Luger

lcpawn · 10-11-2006, 11:30 PM

Hi,
I just joined the site tonight. I have several Lugers but mainly collect Colt 1911 and 1911A1,s. Bought a Luger today unlike any I have seen. My luck though it is a common luger. Here the description.
It has a flat spring riveted on the side of the upper receiver that runs forward and presses on the top of the side plate. The serial number is 2065 all matching including the Hanel milled mag with a aluminum bottom also matching the sn on the pistol, No date on the pistol anywhere. It has crown over N proofs, no grip safety. The front strap has the markings S.D. VII . R. 72 .
This is a vet bringback with the paper stamped by James F. Reilly and signed by a Capt (cannot read signature) with the 2769th Engr Depot Co.
I thought WWI lugers or weimar era pistols had wooden bottoms??
Any help greatly appreciated!!
Thanks
Tim

Nomadr · 10-11-2006, 11:45 PM

Tim,
I don't think that you have a "common" Luger!
Sounds like you have a a Police variation! A very desirable pistol and the bring back papers are a big plus.
Many of the early pistols were brought back into service in WWII. If your Luger was issued with a wooden magazine, it could have been switched with an aluminum one much later!
I'm sure the experts will be chiming in with more info! Nice find. I hope we can see pictures?
Bob

Edward Tinker · 10-11-2006, 11:45 PM

Tim, welcome to the forum, take a look under the FAQ in the New Collectors area for a police sear safety.
It sounds like you have a weimar police luger, probably what is called a Alphabet Police luger, it might have a suffix on the front of the frame.

The base went from wood to aluminum in the late 1920's / early 1930's. Many of the magazines in the later weimar period were issued with aluminum bases.

Ed

lcpawn · 10-12-2006, 12:00 AM

Wow,
Thanks for the fast responses!! It does have a suffix under the 2065 on the front of the frame, but I couldnt tell you what it is. It looks like a P and a Y jammed together or a really screwed up cursive capital A. Forgot to mention it is a DWM

Thanks
Tim

lcpawn · 10-12-2006, 12:56 AM

Wow,
Now I am really confused. Found photos of the suffixes on this forum at http://www.lugerforum.com/Suffixes/S...s/page0005.htm
and mine is exactly like the "Q" in the photo placed on 37 S/42's
But mine has no date. Would this be correct? The pistol is exactly as it was brought back and has the original finish. I will hunt the charging cord for my digital camera and post photos tomorrow.

Thanks!!

Don M · 10-12-2006, 11:58 AM

Tim,

Welcome to the forum!

The "q" suffix is quite appropriate. It indicates this pistol was one of 9,999 with that suffix manufactured by DWM in 1927 or early 1928. Your serial number suggests about mid-1927. These were nominally commercial pistols (no chamber date) but most with this suffix were purchased by the German police.

The marking on the grip strap indicates the pistol was weapon number 72 of the Revierpolizei (precinct police) of Command VII of the Schupzpolizei (Protection Police) in the Prussian administrative district of DÃ?Â¼sseldorf. Command VII was one or more cities within the industrialized Ruhr region in The Rhineland. I have been researching German police markings and have a database of over 1200 of them. Counting yours, it has only two Lugers from this Command.

For my database and research, I would appreciate knowing the following additional information (which may be in the forthcoming photos):

* Is the R in the marking crossed out?

* Does or did this pistol have a magazine safety? The following photo illustrates both the sear and magazine safeties.

lcpawn · 10-12-2006, 05:13 PM

Don, I appreciate the info. I just finished moving my residence and have lost the charging cord for my camera. I am still searching and will post photos as soon as I can get one taken.
The R is not crossed out. The pistol has the sear safety and the cut out area in the grip and frame for the magazine safety. Apparently someone has removed the mag safety, is there a photo or drawing of a magazine safety removed from the pistol that you know of, or a place I can purchase the mag safety. If I could see one I can make it. Pretty handy with my J Head Bridgeport Mill.

Many Thanks
Tim

Ron Wood · 10-12-2006, 05:25 PM

Magazine safeties are quite rare, particularly those that are still intact. Most of them, if they weren't removed altogether, were clipped to remove the part in back of the trigger that blocked the movement of the trigger when the magazine was removed. I do not have an image of a mag safety removed from the gun, but here is a photo of a complete one...doubt that you can fabricate one from this image but it will give you an idea of what it looks like and how it functioned. I have only seen two complete magazine safeties ever offered for sale. Good luck.

Edward Tinker · 10-12-2006, 05:27 PM

Tim, please go to the FAQ and see what it says there on the mag safety, there wil be additional information...

lcpawn · 10-12-2006, 05:52 PM

Thanks for all the help!! You folks are very kind and knowledgeable!!
I will do my best to reproduce the magazine safety accurately and mark it as such.
I am writing and keying the "G" (CNC) code now to make a few Swiss luger grip safeties for a friend of mine who is a master gunsmith in Darlington SC. I can turn out a few extras if anyone thinks there will be a demand for them. They are somewhat complex and will be milled from billet steel. I have made parts that are pretty obscure for G41 and G43 rifles and a host of other firearms, including mill work (from drawings) to replace missing parts in a Pederson Device. I am always looking for a way to make a dollar to fund my incurable addiction (collecting firearms and any related challenge).

Many thanks
Tim

Don M · 10-12-2006, 06:08 PM

G. Henrotin has an e-book The Luger Pistol Mechanical Features that illustrates the mag safety (no dimensions, unfortunately) and explains its operation. Since the German police apparently despised it, I'm not sure what the benefit would be of making repro mag safeties. You don't sound like a booster. Discovering a Luger with an intact original mag safety would be a genuine find, however.

lcpawn · 10-12-2006, 06:33 PM

You are probably right. Just as well leave it as I bought it. Although I truly enjoy the challenge of making a missing rare part, and filling a market need if there is one. Just a thought, it'll pass.

Many Thanks
Tim

John Sabato · 10-12-2006, 07:28 PM

Just FYI... the mag safety was a stamped sheet metal spring... not a machined steel part... while the Henrotin E-book does not give dimensions on the safety, the illustrations are good enough that an enterprising machinist like your self could probably make a good reproduction from the images... They would be a novelty, but I think you would probably sell a few here on the forum if you could make them... If you are concerned about someone passing them off as genuine, you could just mark them in a way that they could never be mistaken for a genuine part...

Just my $0.02 Welcome to the Lugerforum!

Edward Tinker · 10-12-2006, 07:41 PM

A magazine safety is also shown in Jan Still's book. Although I don't know if I agree with making them, I personally would want several for myself if you "insist on making them

weimar_lugers@comcast.net

Top is the sear safety, bottom is the magazine safety

lcpawn · 10-12-2006, 07:59 PM

If someone is interested and has Jan Stills book or any other photo of the mag safety and could scan me photo's and e-mail it to: lcpawn@ftc-i.net
I would really like to have some larger than actual size photos of the actual safety removed from the pistol and any springs or associated parts. I can figure the deminsions as I have the pistol missing one. I will machine the die(s) and strike some. But the safeties will have to be changed somehow in a non-showing area to enable a collector to tell it is a reproduction. I have no desire to counterfeit or decieve anyone. I do not know at the present how many steps (dies) it will take to reproduce the part but if it is relatively simple I will be able to provide a safety to those who help with the project.

Many thanks
Tim

lcpawn · 10-12-2006, 08:19 PM

I know I am new to this forum and probably no one knows me.
If how you conduct business is an indicator of honesty and someone would like check me out before putting time and effort into submitting photos or information, take a moment to check ebay. My user name is: gunpartstore

I have not listed lately because I have been busy on other projects that did not require me to sell the items on ebay.

Many Thanks
Tim

John Sabato · 10-12-2006, 08:41 PM

Tim, your ethics are admirable... all you would have to do is mark the safeties you made in such a way that it couldn't be concealed by someone who would try to take your work and pass it off as genuine... perhaps a unique shaped hole in a non-critical area... or a stamped name that would be difficult to remove without notice...

There may be some members who have one of the Clipped safeties who could make scans or possibly even lend you one of them. You would have to extrapolate the missing part behind the trigger with guesswork. There is no additional part required... the safety is its own spring... bent like a horseshoe... the end fits in the rectangular notch in the flat of the grip frame, and the rest sits below the grip with a tab in the hole for that purpose...

I do not have access to my image library at this time, but perhaps someone else can post the images of the mag safety from the Henrotin e-book for you to examine... Ed Tinker... Don't you have those images available? or maybe Ron Wood? or Dwight Gruber? ...or PoliceLuger (Howard) how about you?

Hugh · 10-12-2006, 11:51 PM

Tim,

I have a Police Luger with a complete mag safety installed. Also, awhile back I bought a batch of small parts and in the batch was a complete mag safety. If you will send me your email address, I will take close up pictures of the extra safety and send them to you.
Hugh

hhclark@wildblue.net

Edward Tinker · 10-13-2006, 03:23 AM

Hugh, I knew you had one luger with a mag safety, I did not know you had "extree" parts

lcpawn · 10-13-2006, 07:27 AM

Hi Hugh,
Sorry I missed your post last night. Had to hit the hay early. Sent you an e-mail this morning.

Thanks for the help!!

Many Thanks
Tim

10-11-2006, 11:30 PM	#1
lcpawn User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No Date Luger Hi, I just joined the site tonight. I have several Lugers but mainly collect Colt 1911 and 1911A1,s. Bought a Luger today unlike any I have seen. My luck though it is a common luger. Here the description. It has a flat spring riveted on the side of the upper receiver that runs forward and presses on the top of the side plate. The serial number is 2065 all matching including the Hanel milled mag with a aluminum bottom also matching the sn on the pistol, No date on the pistol anywhere. It has crown over N proofs, no grip safety. The front strap has the markings S.D. VII . R. 72 . This is a vet bringback with the paper stamped by James F. Reilly and signed by a Capt (cannot read signature) with the 2769th Engr Depot Co. I thought WWI lugers or weimar era pistols had wooden bottoms?? Any help greatly appreciated!! Thanks Tim

10-11-2006, 11:45 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Tim, welcome to the forum, take a look under the FAQ in the New Collectors area for a police sear safety. It sounds like you have a weimar police luger, probably what is called a Alphabet Police luger, it might have a suffix on the front of the frame. The base went from wood to aluminum in the late 1920's / early 1930's. Many of the magazines in the later weimar period were issued with aluminum bases. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-12-2006, 11:58 AM	#6
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Tim, Welcome to the forum! The "q" suffix is quite appropriate. It indicates this pistol was one of 9,999 with that suffix manufactured by DWM in 1927 or early 1928. Your serial number suggests about mid-1927. These were nominally commercial pistols (no chamber date) but most with this suffix were purchased by the German police. The marking on the grip strap indicates the pistol was weapon number 72 of the Revierpolizei (precinct police) of Command VII of the Schupzpolizei (Protection Police) in the Prussian administrative district of DÃ?Â¼sseldorf. Command VII was one or more cities within the industrialized Ruhr region in The Rhineland. I have been researching German police markings and have a database of over 1200 of them. Counting yours, it has only two Lugers from this Command. For my database and research, I would appreciate knowing the following additional information (which may be in the forthcoming photos): * Is the R in the marking crossed out? * Does or did this pistol have a magazine safety? The following photo illustrates both the sear and magazine safeties. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

10-12-2006, 05:25 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Magazine safeties are quite rare, particularly those that are still intact. Most of them, if they weren't removed altogether, were clipped to remove the part in back of the trigger that blocked the movement of the trigger when the magazine was removed. I do not have an image of a mag safety removed from the gun, but here is a photo of a complete one...doubt that you can fabricate one from this image but it will give you an idea of what it looks like and how it functioned. I have only seen two complete magazine safeties ever offered for sale. Good luck. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-12-2006, 06:08 PM	#11
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	G. Henrotin has an e-book The Luger Pistol Mechanical Features that illustrates the mag safety (no dimensions, unfortunately) and explains its operation. Since the German police apparently despised it, I'm not sure what the benefit would be of making repro mag safeties. You don't sound like a booster. Discovering a Luger with an intact original mag safety would be a genuine find, however. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

10-11-2006, 11:45 PM	#2
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	Tim, I don't think that you have a "common" Luger! Sounds like you have a a Police variation! A very desirable pistol and the bring back papers are a big plus. Many of the early pistols were brought back into service in WWII. If your Luger was issued with a wooden magazine, it could have been switched with an aluminum one much later! I'm sure the experts will be chiming in with more info! Nice find. I hope we can see pictures? Bob

10-12-2006, 12:00 AM	#4
lcpawn User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow, Thanks for the fast responses!! It does have a suffix under the 2065 on the front of the frame, but I couldnt tell you what it is. It looks like a P and a Y jammed together or a really screwed up cursive capital A. Forgot to mention it is a DWM Thanks Tim

10-12-2006, 12:56 AM	#5
lcpawn User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow, Now I am really confused. Found photos of the suffixes on this forum at http://www.lugerforum.com/Suffixes/S...s/page0005.htm and mine is exactly like the "Q" in the photo placed on 37 S/42's But mine has no date. Would this be correct? The pistol is exactly as it was brought back and has the original finish. I will hunt the charging cord for my digital camera and post photos tomorrow. Thanks!!

10-12-2006, 05:13 PM	#7
lcpawn User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Don, I appreciate the info. I just finished moving my residence and have lost the charging cord for my camera. I am still searching and will post photos as soon as I can get one taken. The R is not crossed out. The pistol has the sear safety and the cut out area in the grip and frame for the magazine safety. Apparently someone has removed the mag safety, is there a photo or drawing of a magazine safety removed from the pistol that you know of, or a place I can purchase the mag safety. If I could see one I can make it. Pretty handy with my J Head Bridgeport Mill. Many Thanks Tim

10-12-2006, 05:27 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Tim, please go to the FAQ and see what it says there on the mag safety, there wil be additional information...

10-12-2006, 05:52 PM	#10
lcpawn User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for all the help!! You folks are very kind and knowledgeable!! I will do my best to reproduce the magazine safety accurately and mark it as such. I am writing and keying the "G" (CNC) code now to make a few Swiss luger grip safeties for a friend of mine who is a master gunsmith in Darlington SC. I can turn out a few extras if anyone thinks there will be a demand for them. They are somewhat complex and will be milled from billet steel. I have made parts that are pretty obscure for G41 and G43 rifles and a host of other firearms, including mill work (from drawings) to replace missing parts in a Pederson Device. I am always looking for a way to make a dollar to fund my incurable addiction (collecting firearms and any related challenge). Many thanks Tim

10-12-2006, 06:33 PM	#12
lcpawn User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You are probably right. Just as well leave it as I bought it. Although I truly enjoy the challenge of making a missing rare part, and filling a market need if there is one. Just a thought, it'll pass. Many Thanks Tim

10-12-2006, 07:28 PM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Just FYI... the mag safety was a stamped sheet metal spring... not a machined steel part... while the Henrotin E-book does not give dimensions on the safety, the illustrations are good enough that an enterprising machinist like your self could probably make a good reproduction from the images... They would be a novelty, but I think you would probably sell a few here on the forum if you could make them... If you are concerned about someone passing them off as genuine, you could just mark them in a way that they could never be mistaken for a genuine part... Just my $0.02 Welcome to the Lugerforum! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-12-2006, 07:41 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	A magazine safety is also shown in Jan Still's book. Although I don't know if I agree with making them, I personally would want several for myself if you "insist on making them weimar_lugers@comcast.net Top is the sear safety, bottom is the magazine safety

10-12-2006, 07:59 PM	#15
lcpawn User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If someone is interested and has Jan Stills book or any other photo of the mag safety and could scan me photo's and e-mail it to: lcpawn@ftc-i.net I would really like to have some larger than actual size photos of the actual safety removed from the pistol and any springs or associated parts. I can figure the deminsions as I have the pistol missing one. I will machine the die(s) and strike some. But the safeties will have to be changed somehow in a non-showing area to enable a collector to tell it is a reproduction. I have no desire to counterfeit or decieve anyone. I do not know at the present how many steps (dies) it will take to reproduce the part but if it is relatively simple I will be able to provide a safety to those who help with the project. Many thanks Tim

10-12-2006, 08:19 PM	#16
lcpawn User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I know I am new to this forum and probably no one knows me. If how you conduct business is an indicator of honesty and someone would like check me out before putting time and effort into submitting photos or information, take a moment to check ebay. My user name is: gunpartstore I have not listed lately because I have been busy on other projects that did not require me to sell the items on ebay. Many Thanks Tim

10-12-2006, 08:41 PM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Tim, your ethics are admirable... all you would have to do is mark the safeties you made in such a way that it couldn't be concealed by someone who would try to take your work and pass it off as genuine... perhaps a unique shaped hole in a non-critical area... or a stamped name that would be difficult to remove without notice... There may be some members who have one of the Clipped safeties who could make scans or possibly even lend you one of them. You would have to extrapolate the missing part behind the trigger with guesswork. There is no additional part required... the safety is its own spring... bent like a horseshoe... the end fits in the rectangular notch in the flat of the grip frame, and the rest sits below the grip with a tab in the hole for that purpose... I do not have access to my image library at this time, but perhaps someone else can post the images of the mag safety from the Henrotin e-book for you to examine... Ed Tinker... Don't you have those images available? or maybe Ron Wood? or Dwight Gruber? ...or PoliceLuger (Howard) how about you? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-12-2006, 11:51 PM	#18
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Tim, I have a Police Luger with a complete mag safety installed. Also, awhile back I bought a batch of small parts and in the batch was a complete mag safety. If you will send me your email address, I will take close up pictures of the extra safety and send them to you. Hugh hhclark@wildblue.net __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

10-13-2006, 03:23 AM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Hugh, I knew you had one luger with a mag safety, I did not know you had "extree" parts

10-13-2006, 07:27 AM	#20
lcpawn User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Hugh, Sorry I missed your post last night. Had to hit the hay early. Sent you an e-mail this morning. Thanks for the help!! Many Thanks Tim