Help!

MarkC · 09-29-2006, 08:33 PM

I recently bought a "shooter" pistol and would like to know what this is made up of?

The top end is marked 16b on the barrel (script b) which matches the frame number 16b (script b). It is NOT refinished, the proper small parts are "strawed" and will clean up nice.

No date on the upper so I think it is commercial?

There are no proofs or acceptance stamps any where on the gun except the hold open lever that has an crown over a letter and 16 marking on it.

The toggle is DWM and marked 96. One or two of the small parts that are numbered are also mismatched. No other parts have any markings on them.

This "Shooter" has the matched 16b parts on the cannon and frame ... any ideas as to what is was?

It is lacking proofs and any acceptance stamps.

What the HELL is it? Frankenluger?

I paid $350 for it and the barrel is a bit "frosted" but is a nice shooter. It came with a weird mag that has a white plastic base and what appears to be a home made "button" that doesn't engage the hold open lever. A Mec-Gar mag works fine for the pistol and the holds the toggle open.

No acceptance or proofs?

Mark

Dwight Gruber · 09-29-2006, 11:06 PM

Mark,

Got pics?

Are there any marks on the receiver lug?

Any marks in the frame wells?

Is there a c/letter on the front of the trigger guard?

Are all three toggle train parts numbered 96?

Is the left receiver serial numbered?

9mm?

--Dwight

MarkC · 09-30-2006, 08:46 AM

Dwight,

I don't have pics just yet.

Receiver lug marked 16 (a match?)

The only marking in the frame is near the take down lever it is a 1 with a 6 under it and a marking that looks like a ^ under the take down lever.

There are no markings on or near the trigger guard.

Toggle train is marked 96, 66, 13 and the extractor 14.

Left receiver is not numbered but the sear bar has the number 52 and what appears to the a crown over the letter B.

The only other numbered part is the toggle pivot pin #12.

Any idea as to what it is made up of? The frame looks to be machined a little rougher than most other Mauser type Lugers I have seen but the wood grips are in really nice shape.

The gun is 9mm.

Mark

blayne · 09-30-2006, 09:55 AM

Not year marked, means 1 of 3 things;

Commerical
Sneak
PX gun

Not proofed
PX gun or the like, the roughness might point to put together right after the war from parts
Commerical with crown N buffed enough to be gone ~~ look VERY closely to see if there is remants of a crown N on left and right of receiver

receiver lug is cooincidence as they are numbered with worker numbers, and not with serials

I would say put together immediatly after the war ~~ by workers or GI's, not a PX gun as it would / I beleive should be marked, i.e. some kind of proof or marking? not really sure on this, but all indications point to put together gun, unless you find a crown N barely there...

Dwight Gruber · 09-30-2006, 02:38 PM

Mark,

Looking forward to pictures, particularly good closeups of all the usual places for markings. What you have described so far leads toward--and also away from--some interesting directions, and seeing is really going to be required to satisfy curiosity.

--Dwight

MarkC · 09-30-2006, 09:08 PM

Thanks guys!

On further inspection the left side of the receiver has 3 ground out markings under the blue. I'll try to take some photo's of them.

Why would anyone grind out the acceptance stamps and proofs when the serial numbers are left 100% original?

Mark

Lugerdoc · 10-01-2006, 08:09 AM

Mark, The 3 ground down proofs on the LEFT receiver, would indicate to me that it once was a first issue (1908 or 9) DWM military. The 16b serial would place it in 1909, and the matching frame, if original, should be without stock lug. The Imperial accepted (Crown over a letter) sear and hold open, would suggest Erfurt production. The 2 digits ON the receiver lug, are serials during this period, not inspector marks. Sounds like a "Frankenluger" shooter to me, particularly the white Franzite (should be marked inside) bottom on the mag. TH

MarkC · 10-01-2006, 01:16 PM

Tom,

Looks like you may have hit it on the head, the frame has no stock lug! Is the DWM toggle correct?

Here are the photos of the ground off stamps. Can you tell what they are? Does anyone have a theory as to why this was done?

I got a nice "shooter" for $350.00 and put 150 rounds throught the pistol yesterday.

Mark

wlyon · 10-01-2006, 10:15 PM

The remnant of the proofs are what would be expected on a 1908 1st issue .The first proof (left) would be a 1908 Dwm eagle proof, the second would be a Crown over a letter, The third a Crown 3. I have these same proofs on a 1st issue. Bill

Ron Wood · 10-01-2006, 10:28 PM

Actually, the third is a Crown/Z with a smaller crown overstamped and 100% correct for a 1908 First Issue. It is a shame that it was effaced. The removal is very crude and possibly an attempt to conceal it was a military weapon. Enjoy your "Frankenluger", it had a noble past.

10-01-2006, 08:09 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Mark, The 3 ground down proofs on the LEFT receiver, would indicate to me that it once was a first issue (1908 or 9) DWM military. The 16b serial would place it in 1909, and the matching frame, if original, should be without stock lug. The Imperial accepted (Crown over a letter) sear and hold open, would suggest Erfurt production. The 2 digits ON the receiver lug, are serials during this period, not inspector marks. Sounds like a "Frankenluger" shooter to me, particularly the white Franzite (should be marked inside) bottom on the mag. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-01-2006, 10:15 PM	#9
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,656 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,620 Times in 972 Posts	The remnant of the proofs are what would be expected on a 1908 1st issue .The first proof (left) would be a 1908 Dwm eagle proof, the second would be a Crown over a letter, The third a Crown 3. I have these same proofs on a 1st issue. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

10-01-2006, 10:28 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Actually, the third is a Crown/Z with a smaller crown overstamped and 100% correct for a 1908 First Issue. It is a shame that it was effaced. The removal is very crude and possibly an attempt to conceal it was a military weapon. Enjoy your "Frankenluger", it had a noble past. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-29-2006, 08:33 PM	#1
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	Help! I recently bought a "shooter" pistol and would like to know what this is made up of? The top end is marked 16b on the barrel (script b) which matches the frame number 16b (script b). It is NOT refinished, the proper small parts are "strawed" and will clean up nice. No date on the upper so I think it is commercial? There are no proofs or acceptance stamps any where on the gun except the hold open lever that has an crown over a letter and 16 marking on it. The toggle is DWM and marked 96. One or two of the small parts that are numbered are also mismatched. No other parts have any markings on them. This "Shooter" has the matched 16b parts on the cannon and frame ... any ideas as to what is was? It is lacking proofs and any acceptance stamps. What the HELL is it? Frankenluger? I paid $350 for it and the barrel is a bit "frosted" but is a nice shooter. It came with a weird mag that has a white plastic base and what appears to be a home made "button" that doesn't engage the hold open lever. A Mec-Gar mag works fine for the pistol and the holds the toggle open. No acceptance or proofs? Mark

09-29-2006, 11:06 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Mark, Got pics? Are there any marks on the receiver lug? Any marks in the frame wells? Is there a c/letter on the front of the trigger guard? Are all three toggle train parts numbered 96? Is the left receiver serial numbered? 9mm? --Dwight

09-30-2006, 08:46 AM	#3
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	Dwight, I don't have pics just yet. Receiver lug marked 16 (a match?) The only marking in the frame is near the take down lever it is a 1 with a 6 under it and a marking that looks like a ^ under the take down lever. There are no markings on or near the trigger guard. Toggle train is marked 96, 66, 13 and the extractor 14. Left receiver is not numbered but the sear bar has the number 52 and what appears to the a crown over the letter B. The only other numbered part is the toggle pivot pin #12. Any idea as to what it is made up of? The frame looks to be machined a little rougher than most other Mauser type Lugers I have seen but the wood grips are in really nice shape. The gun is 9mm. Mark

09-30-2006, 09:55 AM	#4
blayne User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 34 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not year marked, means 1 of 3 things; Commerical Sneak PX gun Not proofed PX gun or the like, the roughness might point to put together right after the war from parts Commerical with crown N buffed enough to be gone ~~ look VERY closely to see if there is remants of a crown N on left and right of receiver receiver lug is cooincidence as they are numbered with worker numbers, and not with serials I would say put together immediatly after the war ~~ by workers or GI's, not a PX gun as it would / I beleive should be marked, i.e. some kind of proof or marking? not really sure on this, but all indications point to put together gun, unless you find a crown N barely there...

09-30-2006, 02:38 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Mark, Looking forward to pictures, particularly good closeups of all the usual places for markings. What you have described so far leads toward--and also away from--some interesting directions, and seeing is really going to be required to satisfy curiosity. --Dwight

09-30-2006, 09:08 PM	#6
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	Thanks guys! On further inspection the left side of the receiver has 3 ground out markings under the blue. I'll try to take some photo's of them. Why would anyone grind out the acceptance stamps and proofs when the serial numbers are left 100% original? Mark

10-01-2006, 01:16 PM	#8
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	Tom, Looks like you may have hit it on the head, the frame has no stock lug! Is the DWM toggle correct? Here are the photos of the ground off stamps. Can you tell what they are? Does anyone have a theory as to why this was done? I got a nice "shooter" for $350.00 and put 150 rounds throught the pistol yesterday. Mark