Simson "sneak" re-work?

Evil_Ed · 08-05-2006, 11:48 PM

Is there any definitive way I can tell if I managed to score myself a Simson sneak re-work?

Reason I ask...the shop I bought the piece in had received it not more than an hour earlier (talk about being lucky in stopping off at the proper time), and when I asked about it, I was told "It might have been refinished...which is why there's no date on the barrel hood, or maker's mark on the toggle; it looks like they were buffed out."

However, the serial numbers were there (including the one on the breech block, where the maker's mark would be), as were the proofs, which made me wonder. All the serial numbers seemed to match up, even though it appears they were either re-stamped, or stamped again in a different spot (I found different numbers on the bottom, underside, etc of things when I disassembled it). The magazine didn't match, but the price they were asking for it, I figured it for a shooter/bang-around Luger, and not a safe queen. The serial number itself is XX81U. All the pieces are marked 81, except the barrel, which is marked 81U (to match the frame)...and there's one other part that I can only see as being marked as 86, but in a different font? That same number (86) is also stamped on a bunch of other parts, in a different font as well, hence my total confusion at this point.

Another reason I didn't totally buy the re-finished theory was that the straw looked somewhat worn, and the safety marking still had a minute, but visible, amount of white paint in it (a bit darker with age and whatnot, but you can still tell it was painted). If someone was going to refinish it, there'd be no trace of paint, and the straw would have probably been redone. I think. As you're probably guessing, I'm new to this

It wasn't until I broke out the "Lugers At Random" book I have here and started to decipher things, where I kind of got a little..excited, I guess. Unfortunatly I don't have a copy of Mr. Still's book available

I don't have photos; it's night out, and I dont' have any decent lighting to do so. I'll get some tomorrow. However -

Visually, proof-wise, it checks out identically to the photo on page 241 of the book. It has an eagle-6, a WAA66, and another eagle on the barrel, all on the right side. Left side, there's an eagle on the breech block. The barrel is not nitro proofed. All the numbers APPEAR to match, but again..as it looks like there was some re-stamping, I can't be totally sure

But, according to the description about parts possibly being re-numbered in a different lettering style and such..well, you can see how an imagination can run rampant.

There's a more-or-less-normal chip/missing sliver of wood on the left side grip panel under the safety; at least I know someone other than me took off that grip panel.

As you can imagine...if it IS a Simson re-work, I'd be quite excited. If it turns out to be a total mixmaster, well, then the primary purpose of purchasing it (as a shooter) would be fulfilled, and I'll still be very happy with it.

So..is there any real way to tell if it's a Simson, or just some humped up piece, or..?

Thanks so much for your help!!

I'll try to get photos and post them ASAP tomorrow. One of these days I'll need to invest in a good close-up lens...

Edited to add: It DOES have the sear safety on it, as well as the stock lug.

Edward Tinker · 08-06-2006, 12:26 AM

Ed, why do you think it is a Simson and definately, why a "sneak"...

More than likely a DWM "sneak"...

No marking on the toggle?

Ed

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 12:47 AM

The only marking on the toggle is "81", matching the last two digits of the serial. The main pin in back is also marked 81. There's no other makers marks on it...no dates, no logos, nada. Unfortunatly the stampings on the right side of the frame do seem to be a little buffed, or lightly struck

I can't make out the 3rd marking, but there is definitily something stamped there...eagle with a 6 under it, WAA 66, and then some other stamping, in order from back to front on the right side. Then, of course, the straw eagle, I guess it could be called? On the barrel, in-line with the receiver markings.

On the top of the Luger, literally, the only marking is that 81 on the piece where a manufacturer's logo/mark would normally be.

Could I be that wrong?

Erp, edited - the extractor is also stamped 81, so...yah, only two markings on the top are the 81's on both extractor and on the toggle.

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 12:57 AM

Also, don't know if it matters or not, but on the magazine..well, I guess? Bottom of the frame, on the rim of the grip, the front is stamped on the bottom "170." (at least, it looks like a period, if a bit high for one), and "8 1" on each side of the rear of the grip, straddling the magazine well.

I'll post photos of it tomorrow.

Edward Tinker · 08-06-2006, 10:15 AM

ed, it does sound like a "sneak", the u suffix is correct, if so and not refinsihed, you did well

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 01:23 PM

Here's some photos:

Full-size photos are available here.

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 01:35 PM

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 01:36 PM

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 01:36 PM

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 01:36 PM

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 01:36 PM

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 01:37 PM

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 01:37 PM

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 01:39 PM

It's worth noting that the 86 on the sear bar (I think it is? I don't have a parts diagram in front of me) matches similar 86 markings on the inside of other parts (like the left side plate is marked 86 inside of it, etc)

Either that (and the magazine) are the odd men out, or it just wasn't remarked? I don't really know.

Also, on the safety, that is indeed green paint in the indent there. I don't know if it's original or not. Unfortunatly I don't have enough lighting to pick out the detail, but there is definitily traces of white in the safety marking.

drbuster · 08-06-2006, 02:46 PM

I could be wrong (again!) but this piece looks like a Simson police rework of the Weimar period. Note the sear safety. Also of note the magazine appears to be an Erfurt pre-1915 (two imperial proofs).

Don M · 08-06-2006, 07:18 PM

Does it have any evidence of a marking on the front of the grip strap?

Evil_Ed · 08-06-2006, 07:56 PM

Don, no, it does not, not that I can see or feel... Just that 170 marking in the photo above.

Edited to include I also looked inside the front strap when I had the grips of (Sorry, didn't check for pencil/markings inside the grips at the time), and didn't see any indentations...it was one of the things I was checking for.

Don M · 08-07-2006, 12:03 PM

Ed,

I don't know about the "Simson rework" aspect but this appears to be one of the Lugers manufactured by BKIW in 1929 just before the transfer to Mauser. Most of these with t and u suffixes went to the police as did yours. It has a sear safety and remnants of a mag safety. The front of the grip strap apparently was never marked, indicating it went to a police unit that did not mark its weapons according to Prussian regulations for the Schupo or LandjÃ?Â¤gerei. It may have gone to a Kommunal- or Gemeindepolizei unit. These units, if they marked weapons at all, used a variety of formats. I suspect the 170. is the weapon number for this particular unit.

In my opinion, the "sneak" designation is a misnomer. I don't think it was an attempt to be sneaky since the IMKK had departed two years earlier than this pistol was manufactured. Some of the pistols in this serial range had DWM logos and some were blank. It is more likely that they fillled the order for police pistols with whatever components were immediately available and this included some blank toggles.

Evil_Ed · 08-07-2006, 12:38 PM

Understood...my understanding of the era between wars is rather empty to begin with. I thought all blank hoods/toggles and K marked barrel hoods were considered "sneaks"...I really need to pick up some more books on the subject.

One project for tonight is to again fully disassemble it, but this time actually document what's marked and numbered where; something I neglected to do last time.

Given all of that, did I just pick myself up a shooter, or is it something I should lubricate and store away? Is it more collectors piece? If I can take the thing out and use it for it's intended purpose and not worry about breaking it, or wearing it more, then fantastic. If it's something better off being preserved and put away, that's just fine too...I just don't quite know which way to go with this one.

Also, if this posting would be better served by moving it to the "new collectors" forum, then no worries moving it there...I didn't even spot that board my first time through the forums.

Thanks!

Dwight Gruber · 08-07-2006, 01:48 PM

E-Ed,

This is a very interesting gun. I'm looking forward to your detailed marking documentation, any photos would be a bonus. Of particular interest are the frame front, left receiver, and witness mark area.

--Dwight

08-05-2006, 11:48 PM	#1
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Simson "sneak" re-work? Is there any definitive way I can tell if I managed to score myself a Simson sneak re-work? Reason I ask...the shop I bought the piece in had received it not more than an hour earlier (talk about being lucky in stopping off at the proper time), and when I asked about it, I was told "It might have been refinished...which is why there's no date on the barrel hood, or maker's mark on the toggle; it looks like they were buffed out." However, the serial numbers were there (including the one on the breech block, where the maker's mark would be), as were the proofs, which made me wonder. All the serial numbers seemed to match up, even though it appears they were either re-stamped, or stamped again in a different spot (I found different numbers on the bottom, underside, etc of things when I disassembled it). The magazine didn't match, but the price they were asking for it, I figured it for a shooter/bang-around Luger, and not a safe queen. The serial number itself is XX81U. All the pieces are marked 81, except the barrel, which is marked 81U (to match the frame)...and there's one other part that I can only see as being marked as 86, but in a different font? That same number (86) is also stamped on a bunch of other parts, in a different font as well, hence my total confusion at this point. Another reason I didn't totally buy the re-finished theory was that the straw looked somewhat worn, and the safety marking still had a minute, but visible, amount of white paint in it (a bit darker with age and whatnot, but you can still tell it was painted). If someone was going to refinish it, there'd be no trace of paint, and the straw would have probably been redone. I think. As you're probably guessing, I'm new to this It wasn't until I broke out the "Lugers At Random" book I have here and started to decipher things, where I kind of got a little..excited, I guess. Unfortunatly I don't have a copy of Mr. Still's book available I don't have photos; it's night out, and I dont' have any decent lighting to do so. I'll get some tomorrow. However - Visually, proof-wise, it checks out identically to the photo on page 241 of the book. It has an eagle-6, a WAA66, and another eagle on the barrel, all on the right side. Left side, there's an eagle on the breech block. The barrel is not nitro proofed. All the numbers APPEAR to match, but again..as it looks like there was some re-stamping, I can't be totally sure But, according to the description about parts possibly being re-numbered in a different lettering style and such..well, you can see how an imagination can run rampant. There's a more-or-less-normal chip/missing sliver of wood on the left side grip panel under the safety; at least I know someone other than me took off that grip panel. As you can imagine...if it IS a Simson re-work, I'd be quite excited. If it turns out to be a total mixmaster, well, then the primary purpose of purchasing it (as a shooter) would be fulfilled, and I'll still be very happy with it. So..is there any real way to tell if it's a Simson, or just some humped up piece, or..? Thanks so much for your help!! I'll try to get photos and post them ASAP tomorrow. One of these days I'll need to invest in a good close-up lens... Edited to add: It DOES have the sear safety on it, as well as the stock lug.

08-06-2006, 12:26 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,965 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,594 Times in 2,116 Posts	Ed, why do you think it is a Simson and definately, why a "sneak"... More than likely a DWM "sneak"... No marking on the toggle? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-06-2006, 10:15 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,965 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,594 Times in 2,116 Posts	ed, it does sound like a "sneak", the u suffix is correct, if so and not refinsihed, you did well __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-06-2006, 07:18 PM	#16
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Does it have any evidence of a marking on the front of the grip strap? __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-07-2006, 12:03 PM	#18
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Ed, I don't know about the "Simson rework" aspect but this appears to be one of the Lugers manufactured by BKIW in 1929 just before the transfer to Mauser. Most of these with t and u suffixes went to the police as did yours. It has a sear safety and remnants of a mag safety. The front of the grip strap apparently was never marked, indicating it went to a police unit that did not mark its weapons according to Prussian regulations for the Schupo or LandjÃ?Â¤gerei. It may have gone to a Kommunal- or Gemeindepolizei unit. These units, if they marked weapons at all, used a variety of formats. I suspect the 170. is the weapon number for this particular unit. In my opinion, the "sneak" designation is a misnomer. I don't think it was an attempt to be sneaky since the IMKK had departed two years earlier than this pistol was manufactured. Some of the pistols in this serial range had DWM logos and some were blank. It is more likely that they fillled the order for police pistols with whatever components were immediately available and this included some blank toggles. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-06-2006, 12:47 AM	#3
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The only marking on the toggle is "81", matching the last two digits of the serial. The main pin in back is also marked 81. There's no other makers marks on it...no dates, no logos, nada. Unfortunatly the stampings on the right side of the frame do seem to be a little buffed, or lightly struck I can't make out the 3rd marking, but there is definitily something stamped there...eagle with a 6 under it, WAA 66, and then some other stamping, in order from back to front on the right side. Then, of course, the straw eagle, I guess it could be called? On the barrel, in-line with the receiver markings. On the top of the Luger, literally, the only marking is that 81 on the piece where a manufacturer's logo/mark would normally be. Could I be that wrong? Erp, edited - the extractor is also stamped 81, so...yah, only two markings on the top are the 81's on both extractor and on the toggle.

08-06-2006, 12:57 AM	#4
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Also, don't know if it matters or not, but on the magazine..well, I guess? Bottom of the frame, on the rim of the grip, the front is stamped on the bottom "170." (at least, it looks like a period, if a bit high for one), and "8 1" on each side of the rear of the grip, straddling the magazine well. I'll post photos of it tomorrow.

08-06-2006, 01:23 PM	#6
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here's some photos: Full-size photos are available here.

08-06-2006, 01:35 PM	#7
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

08-06-2006, 01:36 PM	#8
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

08-06-2006, 01:37 PM	#12
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

08-06-2006, 01:39 PM	#14
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It's worth noting that the 86 on the sear bar (I think it is? I don't have a parts diagram in front of me) matches similar 86 markings on the inside of other parts (like the left side plate is marked 86 inside of it, etc) Either that (and the magazine) are the odd men out, or it just wasn't remarked? I don't really know. Also, on the safety, that is indeed green paint in the indent there. I don't know if it's original or not. Unfortunatly I don't have enough lighting to pick out the detail, but there is definitily traces of white in the safety marking.

08-06-2006, 02:46 PM	#15
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I could be wrong (again!) but this piece looks like a Simson police rework of the Weimar period. Note the sear safety. Also of note the magazine appears to be an Erfurt pre-1915 (two imperial proofs).

08-06-2006, 07:56 PM	#17
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Don, no, it does not, not that I can see or feel... Just that 170 marking in the photo above. Edited to include I also looked inside the front strap when I had the grips of (Sorry, didn't check for pencil/markings inside the grips at the time), and didn't see any indentations...it was one of the things I was checking for.

08-07-2006, 12:38 PM	#19
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Understood...my understanding of the era between wars is rather empty to begin with. I thought all blank hoods/toggles and K marked barrel hoods were considered "sneaks"...I really need to pick up some more books on the subject. One project for tonight is to again fully disassemble it, but this time actually document what's marked and numbered where; something I neglected to do last time. Given all of that, did I just pick myself up a shooter, or is it something I should lubricate and store away? Is it more collectors piece? If I can take the thing out and use it for it's intended purpose and not worry about breaking it, or wearing it more, then fantastic. If it's something better off being preserved and put away, that's just fine too...I just don't quite know which way to go with this one. Also, if this posting would be better served by moving it to the "new collectors" forum, then no worries moving it there...I didn't even spot that board my first time through the forums. Thanks!

08-07-2006, 01:48 PM	#20
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	E-Ed, This is a very interesting gun. I'm looking forward to your detailed marking documentation, any photos would be a bonus. Of particular interest are the frame front, left receiver, and witness mark area. --Dwight