Just another 1908 commercial

oxi81 · 07-07-2006, 07:30 PM

Hi guys,
Some bad pics of my 1908 commercial.

Yes, Dwight, you already know it

Never reblued - matte grey.
All number match but no # on grips, nor on wooden bottom mag.
Lazy crowned N
# 60067
German "geladen" and "gesichert"
Nothing else.

FranÃ?Â§ois

Edward Tinker · 07-07-2006, 07:39 PM

FranÃ?Â§ois, old ones are nice! Nice pineapple!

Ed

oxi81 · 07-07-2006, 07:49 PM

Thanks Ed...
And what do you think about her sister?

Wartime commercial (1916).
All number match (even grips

) .
1920 rework mark.

Edward Tinker · 07-07-2006, 08:24 PM

ahhh, I haven't seen very many 1920 Property marks on mausers, I assume it is because I don't collect them.

Ed

oxi81 · 07-11-2006, 08:39 PM

Guys,...
In which year was produced my 1908 commercial ? 1912? 1913?

FranÃ?Â§ois

Dwight Gruber · 07-11-2006, 09:22 PM

Post deleted due to faulty information and inadequate research--see my next post below.

--Dwight

oxi81 · 07-12-2006, 05:57 AM

Thanks Dwight for answering.

My technical english isn't very good and I suppose that "holdopen" means the system which holds the toggle opened with an empty magazine in gun.

My #60067 pistol does not have holdopen. So, it seems logical that #55361 and #55631 haven't original holdopens system...
How can we be sure that an holdopen system is original?

I suppose military P08 did get this system before commercial models. If not, how can we explain that some 1912 military pistols have it and not an early 1913 commercial model?

Thx,
FranÃ?Â§ois

Dwight Gruber · 07-12-2006, 11:44 AM

FranÃ?Â§ois,

Correct, the holdopen is the system which holds the toggle opened with an empty magazine in the gun.

The holdopen part itself rotates on a steel pin. This pin is installed through a hole drilled into the right side of the frame, and is a press-fit. On Lugers originally manufactured with a holdopen the exterior of this pin is machined and blued along with the rest of the frame, and is not normally seen.

On Lugers in which the holdopen has been added, and which retain their original finish, the pin itself is visible in the exterior of the frame because it has not been blued. On DWM and Erfurt military guns produced before 1913 holdopens were retrofitted at the Erfurt armory. These were carefully machined to the profile of the frame, and a small inspector's stamp was placed nearby to certify the work.

In the illustration below, the left-hand gun is a 1911 Erfurt military which has been retrofitted. The pin can be seen, properly in the white and conforming to the frame rail profile, with its associated inspector stamp. The right-hand gun is a P-08 Commercial sn46161, which has had a holdopen added presumably by a private gunsmith; note that the frame has been milled flat around the pin to avoid a difficult machining process, and there is no inspector stamp.

In formulating this answer I went back to Imperial Lugers to check my facts (rather than my database notes) and was reminded that DWM military production holdopen was introduced at the end of 1912. It has been suggested that parts for DWM Commercial production sometimes came from military production parts which did not meet military specification. This could account for the two Commercial examples 55361 and 55631 which have original holdopens, and place them no earlier than the end of 1912. This is highly speculative. Following this speculation, your gun might be manufactured in 1913, but I lack sufficient confidence in this line of speculation to assert it.

I have deleted my previous answer to the question as it arrives at a questionable conclusion based on erroneous information.

Can anyone provide serial numbers of other P-08 Commercial with original holdopen?

--Dwight

maddog350gt · 07-31-2006, 03:13 AM

Dwight and Oxi81

For what it's worth, I have a 1908 commercial serial number 69157 with hold open pin machined and blued with the frame. This could have been done after leaving DWM as this gun was put into police service as attested to by the installed sear safety. The bluing is a rust blue finish and I assume it is either original or done when the gun was refurbished before going into police service. I doubt this piece will shed much light given the uncertainty of refurbishing but you may know better.

Thanks,
Bob M.

policeluger · 07-31-2006, 09:20 AM

FWIW, I have a 1908 model sn# 51197 with factory hold open, and has both police sear and mag safety......same as Bob states above.

Dwight Gruber · 07-31-2006, 11:03 AM

Bob,

I'd like to get a look at this gun sometime with a high-power magnifier.

Howard,

Can you see -any- evidence of the pin from the outside? Also, does this gun have c/BUG proofs or c/N (lazy) proof?

--Dwight

Jan C Still · 07-31-2006, 03:58 PM

Dwight
"In formulating this answer I went back to Imperial Lugers to check my facts (rather than my database notes) and was reminded that DWM military production holdopen was introduced at the end of 1912."

I found an error in Imperial Lugers that I had not noticed until today. It is on page 13 and 23. The hold open was added in 1913 not 1912. It was added on 1913 production between sn 3251a and 4132a.
Jan

policeluger · 07-31-2006, 05:24 PM

DG, no BUG, lazy C/N....you can see a very fine line around HO pin....but hard to tell.....factory type work.

Dwight Gruber · 07-31-2006, 10:48 PM

Howard,

Thanks much.

--Dwight

oxi81 · 11-16-2006, 06:05 PM

Hi guys,

A better pic of my ol' soldier.
As you can see, no holdopen of this #60067 '08 commercial.

FranÃ?Â§ois

Edward Tinker · 11-16-2006, 06:12 PM

ahhhhh, nothing like seeing a nice luger, holster and tool against oak

07-07-2006, 07:30 PM	#1
oxi81 User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: France Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just another 1908 commercial Hi guys, Some bad pics of my 1908 commercial. Yes, Dwight, you already know it Never reblued - matte grey. All number match but no # on grips, nor on wooden bottom mag. Lazy crowned N # 60067 German "geladen" and "gesichert" Nothing else. FranÃ?Â§ois

07-07-2006, 08:24 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	ahhh, I haven't seen very many 1920 Property marks on mausers, I assume it is because I don't collect them. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-16-2006, 06:12 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	ahhhhh, nothing like seeing a nice luger, holster and tool against oak __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-07-2006, 07:39 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	FranÃ?Â§ois, old ones are nice! Nice pineapple! Ed

07-07-2006, 07:49 PM	#3
oxi81 User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: France Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ed... And what do you think about her sister? Wartime commercial (1916). All number match (even grips ) . 1920 rework mark.

07-11-2006, 08:39 PM	#5
oxi81 User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: France Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Guys,... In which year was produced my 1908 commercial ? 1912? 1913? FranÃ?Â§ois

07-11-2006, 09:22 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Post deleted due to faulty information and inadequate research--see my next post below. --Dwight

07-12-2006, 05:57 AM	#7
oxi81 User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: France Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Dwight for answering. My technical english isn't very good and I suppose that "holdopen" means the system which holds the toggle opened with an empty magazine in gun. My #60067 pistol does not have holdopen. So, it seems logical that #55361 and #55631 haven't original holdopens system... How can we be sure that an holdopen system is original? I suppose military P08 did get this system before commercial models. If not, how can we explain that some 1912 military pistols have it and not an early 1913 commercial model? Thx, FranÃ?Â§ois

07-12-2006, 11:44 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	FranÃ?Â§ois, Correct, the holdopen is the system which holds the toggle opened with an empty magazine in the gun. The holdopen part itself rotates on a steel pin. This pin is installed through a hole drilled into the right side of the frame, and is a press-fit. On Lugers originally manufactured with a holdopen the exterior of this pin is machined and blued along with the rest of the frame, and is not normally seen. On Lugers in which the holdopen has been added, and which retain their original finish, the pin itself is visible in the exterior of the frame because it has not been blued. On DWM and Erfurt military guns produced before 1913 holdopens were retrofitted at the Erfurt armory. These were carefully machined to the profile of the frame, and a small inspector's stamp was placed nearby to certify the work. In the illustration below, the left-hand gun is a 1911 Erfurt military which has been retrofitted. The pin can be seen, properly in the white and conforming to the frame rail profile, with its associated inspector stamp. The right-hand gun is a P-08 Commercial sn46161, which has had a holdopen added presumably by a private gunsmith; note that the frame has been milled flat around the pin to avoid a difficult machining process, and there is no inspector stamp. In formulating this answer I went back to Imperial Lugers to check my facts (rather than my database notes) and was reminded that DWM military production holdopen was introduced at the end of 1912. It has been suggested that parts for DWM Commercial production sometimes came from military production parts which did not meet military specification. This could account for the two Commercial examples 55361 and 55631 which have original holdopens, and place them no earlier than the end of 1912. This is highly speculative. Following this speculation, your gun might be manufactured in 1913, but I lack sufficient confidence in this line of speculation to assert it. I have deleted my previous answer to the question as it arrives at a questionable conclusion based on erroneous information. Can anyone provide serial numbers of other P-08 Commercial with original holdopen? --Dwight

07-31-2006, 03:13 AM	#9
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Dwight and Oxi81 For what it's worth, I have a 1908 commercial serial number 69157 with hold open pin machined and blued with the frame. This could have been done after leaving DWM as this gun was put into police service as attested to by the installed sear safety. The bluing is a rust blue finish and I assume it is either original or done when the gun was refurbished before going into police service. I doubt this piece will shed much light given the uncertainty of refurbishing but you may know better. Thanks, Bob M.

07-31-2006, 09:20 AM	#10
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	FWIW, I have a 1908 model sn# 51197 with factory hold open, and has both police sear and mag safety......same as Bob states above.

07-31-2006, 11:03 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Bob, I'd like to get a look at this gun sometime with a high-power magnifier. Howard, Can you see -any- evidence of the pin from the outside? Also, does this gun have c/BUG proofs or c/N (lazy) proof? --Dwight

07-31-2006, 03:58 PM	#12
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Dwight "In formulating this answer I went back to Imperial Lugers to check my facts (rather than my database notes) and was reminded that DWM military production holdopen was introduced at the end of 1912." I found an error in Imperial Lugers that I had not noticed until today. It is on page 13 and 23. The hold open was added in 1913 not 1912. It was added on 1913 production between sn 3251a and 4132a. Jan

07-31-2006, 05:24 PM	#13
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	DG, no BUG, lazy C/N....you can see a very fine line around HO pin....but hard to tell.....factory type work.

07-31-2006, 10:48 PM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Howard, Thanks much. --Dwight

11-16-2006, 06:05 PM	#15
oxi81 User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: France Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi guys, A better pic of my ol' soldier. As you can see, no holdopen of this #60067 '08 commercial. FranÃ?Â§ois