Just another 1908 commercial

Dwight Gruber · 07-12-2006, 12:44 PM

FranÃ?Â§ois,

Correct, the holdopen is the system which holds the toggle opened with an empty magazine in the gun.

The holdopen part itself rotates on a steel pin. This pin is installed through a hole drilled into the right side of the frame, and is a press-fit. On Lugers originally manufactured with a holdopen the exterior of this pin is machined and blued along with the rest of the frame, and is not normally seen.

On Lugers in which the holdopen has been added, and which retain their original finish, the pin itself is visible in the exterior of the frame because it has not been blued. On DWM and Erfurt military guns produced before 1913 holdopens were retrofitted at the Erfurt armory. These were carefully machined to the profile of the frame, and a small inspector's stamp was placed nearby to certify the work.

In the illustration below, the left-hand gun is a 1911 Erfurt military which has been retrofitted. The pin can be seen, properly in the white and conforming to the frame rail profile, with its associated inspector stamp. The right-hand gun is a P-08 Commercial sn46161, which has had a holdopen added presumably by a private gunsmith; note that the frame has been milled flat around the pin to avoid a difficult machining process, and there is no inspector stamp.

In formulating this answer I went back to Imperial Lugers to check my facts (rather than my database notes) and was reminded that DWM military production holdopen was introduced at the end of 1912. It has been suggested that parts for DWM Commercial production sometimes came from military production parts which did not meet military specification. This could account for the two Commercial examples 55361 and 55631 which have original holdopens, and place them no earlier than the end of 1912. This is highly speculative. Following this speculation, your gun might be manufactured in 1913, but I lack sufficient confidence in this line of speculation to assert it.

I have deleted my previous answer to the question as it arrives at a questionable conclusion based on erroneous information.

Can anyone provide serial numbers of other P-08 Commercial with original holdopen?

--Dwight

07-12-2006, 12:44 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	FranÃ?Â§ois, Correct, the holdopen is the system which holds the toggle opened with an empty magazine in the gun. The holdopen part itself rotates on a steel pin. This pin is installed through a hole drilled into the right side of the frame, and is a press-fit. On Lugers originally manufactured with a holdopen the exterior of this pin is machined and blued along with the rest of the frame, and is not normally seen. On Lugers in which the holdopen has been added, and which retain their original finish, the pin itself is visible in the exterior of the frame because it has not been blued. On DWM and Erfurt military guns produced before 1913 holdopens were retrofitted at the Erfurt armory. These were carefully machined to the profile of the frame, and a small inspector's stamp was placed nearby to certify the work. In the illustration below, the left-hand gun is a 1911 Erfurt military which has been retrofitted. The pin can be seen, properly in the white and conforming to the frame rail profile, with its associated inspector stamp. The right-hand gun is a P-08 Commercial sn46161, which has had a holdopen added presumably by a private gunsmith; note that the frame has been milled flat around the pin to avoid a difficult machining process, and there is no inspector stamp. In formulating this answer I went back to Imperial Lugers to check my facts (rather than my database notes) and was reminded that DWM military production holdopen was introduced at the end of 1912. It has been suggested that parts for DWM Commercial production sometimes came from military production parts which did not meet military specification. This could account for the two Commercial examples 55361 and 55631 which have original holdopens, and place them no earlier than the end of 1912. This is highly speculative. Following this speculation, your gun might be manufactured in 1913, but I lack sufficient confidence in this line of speculation to assert it. I have deleted my previous answer to the question as it arrives at a questionable conclusion based on erroneous information. Can anyone provide serial numbers of other P-08 Commercial with original holdopen? --Dwight