naval luger barrel lengths

bigbill · 06-11-2006, 04:19 PM

I need a responce from the experts in the naval forum. I saw a beautiful Naval luger last week at a gun show in Ontario. The person says that he has owned it for 40-50 years, it had the c/m double markings on the left side of the frame and was in excellent condition. I do not have the serial number, but it had an eight inch , very slender barrel. Did these ever have an 8" barrel?? He wants $2000. Canadian for it.
Please advise your opinions.
Bigbill

Ron Smith · 06-11-2006, 04:59 PM

Bill,

It sounds like an Artillery barrel replacement. Is it export marked "GERMANY"? $2000 Canadian converts to about $1800.00 USD.

If in very nice condition? It might be a bit high, but not out of reason in my opinion.

Ron

bigbill · 06-11-2006, 05:17 PM

thanks for your responce. It is not an artillery barrel, i have 2 artillery models, and this barrel is very slender, almost like a .30 caliber barrel, but definitely 9mm. It does not have the bulge of an arty barrel where it goes into the receiver. I read in one of my books that there were some special length barrels made in 1949 for the Olympics. Could this have been one of them? also would not having the original barrel affect the price of a naval model??
bigbill

Ron Wood · 06-11-2006, 06:13 PM

Does it have a navy rear sight?

bigbill · 06-11-2006, 10:55 PM

yes ron, it has the 100/200 naval sight

Ron Wood · 06-11-2006, 11:28 PM

Unless the barrel is numbered to the gun and is properly proofed, it most likely is a replacement. Even if it is numbered, it does not fit the specs for a navy. I don't believe the Luger ever was an Olympic pistol, and I doubt that the navy sights would have provided the precision required at that level of competition.
As far as having an impact on the price of a naval model, you aren't going to be able to touch a Navy in beautiful condition for anywhere near $1800, so the owner has priced it as non-original. As the more intelligent Ron has stated, it is a mite high but not out of reason. If it sings to you and you can afford it...go for it.

P.S. If you do get it, how about some pics. It sounds like a neat gun and should be a terrific shooter.

bigbill · 06-12-2006, 10:09 AM

Ron, thanks for your insight. We had a show yesterday, but the fellow was not there this time. At the last show, he had the luger and a full auto Uzi just sitting on his table, without trigger locks and not held down with a wire. In Canada, we have some very stringent rules for displaying weapons, and he made quite a stir with the people who operated the show because he refused to lock his guns up properly. I hope to see him at the next show and i am going to ask him if i can take some pictures with my digital camera to post for the forum.
thanks again
bigbill

policeluger · 06-12-2006, 10:12 AM

Remember, there are repo 2 position naval sights out there....

bigbill · 06-12-2006, 10:20 AM

policeluger, thanks, I am not proficient enough to know how to determine a fake, but from what i remember, every thing appears genuine except the barrel. If he will let me photo it, you experts can decide. hopefully he will follow the rules about displaying and be allowed back in the shows.
Bigbill

policeluger · 06-12-2006, 11:21 AM

A clear shot of the left side of the sight, showing the cut serrations on the top rear would be key....

John Sabato · 06-12-2006, 12:00 PM

A little off topic, but Bigbill, I was not aware that full auto guns were legal in Canada for private ownership... can you brief us on what the laws are like up there for what our ATF calls Class 3 guns?

bigbill · 06-12-2006, 02:50 PM

John, I would be happy to explain some of our Canadian laws to the forum. We can only own full automatic weapons if we had the special permit allowing them prior to either 1978 or 1979. If you did not acquire that permit prior to those dates, you can never get the permit even if you were not born until after those dates. In this way the Canadian government has mandated that these weapons will become extinct in the hands of private people as the permit holders die off.
The estates of these permit holders are allowed to sell these weapons, upon their death, but only to other permit holders, of which there are fewer every year; or sell them to museums.
Canadians also have to register every weapon they purchase, even down to air rifles and pellet guns of a certain cfm power.
You may have heard of our infamous "gun registry system", put in place ten years ago by the Liberal government of the time, which was only going to cost 2-3 million dollars to set up and maintain; but which at this time has cost over 2 Billion Cdn. dollars. It was suspossed to stop illegal guns and their use in Canada, but it is a complete failure. Criminals do not buy or register legal guns; they steal them, smuggle them in from your country illegally or even "rent" them from other criminals.
In order for a person to own a handgun, you must first take and pass several courses in handling guns, then apply for a special handgun ownership permit. If you pass the police checks, you must also belong to a registered gun club, which is willing to vouche for you before you can get another permit allowing you to transport your guns to the club for target shooting purposes only.
Canadians can not get a weapon for "personal safety reasons" and only police or special security guards can actually carry on their person in public.
The requirements for storage are very stringent and people who are robbed are usually "blamed" for losing their guns, no matter how strong their storage was.
Also we do not the right to use our guns in defense of our selves, family or our own house. We have no 2nd Amenment rights, and in the past gun owners have been sued sucessfully by the criminals who robbed them, and also sent to jail for using excessive force and their guns against people who have broken into their own homes.
Although some people disparage Americans, I envy you your freedoms where firearms are concerned, because I, like you and most members of this forum, are law abiding, responsible gun owners, not criminals.
Sorry for being so long winded, but you got me going.
Some days I just want to move to Utah.
Bigbill

John Sabato · 06-13-2006, 11:03 AM

thanks so much for the briefing on gun laws in Canada... that explains a lot. We have a few Canadian members, but not many compared to our overal number... your explanation makes the reason why clear...

Utah is a very gun friendly state... I am sure they would welcome you.

Mike Jones · 06-13-2006, 02:02 PM

Is this gun an old model(1900) or new model (1906)? I know of a couple of old model in 30 cal with 7" bbl. that are Navy Proofed.

Regards,
Mike Jones

Lugerdoc · 06-13-2006, 04:31 PM

Hi Mike. Charlie K. does mention that a few 7.75x175mm barreled M1900s exist with stock lug and adjustable rear sight on page 26 of his MNP book, but no mention of any being Navy proofed. In fact, he states that most of the 7" barrelled guns in the 10,000 to 10,050 range, were believed to be for a South American order. I expect that these were from the 10K prototype range, rather that standard production serialization. TH

Mike Jones · 06-13-2006, 04:53 PM

Hi Tom,

I am aware of the 7" 10,000 range guns, these are not Navy proofed. I know of two 1900 model guns that are early numbers that are Navy proofed, similar to the 1904 model.

Mike

lugercollector · 06-13-2006, 09:40 PM

I saw this gun at that show...it is a genuine 1914 Navy dated 1916......the barrel has been replaced by a 8" unit that has a different finish than the gun....the barrel has a faint crown M and a faint serial # that matches the Luger........I have no idea when it was replaced.....

bigbill · 06-14-2006, 08:49 AM

lugercollector, thanks for your help. Do you thionk it is worth the $2000 Cdn he wants for it??
Bigbill

lugercollector · 06-14-2006, 09:14 PM

I was willing to offer him around $1400 with the shoulder stock....he seems stuck on the $2g figure.....I would not pay his price....I doubt you could recoup the money down the line....but!!!...if you really like the gun......

Ron Wood · 06-14-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

I was willing to offer him around $1400 with the shoulder stock

What kind of stock comes with it?

06-11-2006, 04:19 PM	#1
bigbill User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: kitchener,ontario, canada Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	naval luger barrel lengths I need a responce from the experts in the naval forum. I saw a beautiful Naval luger last week at a gun show in Ontario. The person says that he has owned it for 40-50 years, it had the c/m double markings on the left side of the frame and was in excellent condition. I do not have the serial number, but it had an eight inch , very slender barrel. Did these ever have an 8" barrel?? He wants $2000. Canadian for it. Please advise your opinions. Bigbill

06-11-2006, 04:59 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Bill, It sounds like an Artillery barrel replacement. Is it export marked "GERMANY"? $2000 Canadian converts to about $1800.00 USD. If in very nice condition? It might be a bit high, but not out of reason in my opinion. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-11-2006, 05:17 PM	#3
bigbill User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: kitchener,ontario, canada Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	barrel length thanks for your responce. It is not an artillery barrel, i have 2 artillery models, and this barrel is very slender, almost like a .30 caliber barrel, but definitely 9mm. It does not have the bulge of an arty barrel where it goes into the receiver. I read in one of my books that there were some special length barrels made in 1949 for the Olympics. Could this have been one of them? also would not having the original barrel affect the price of a naval model?? bigbill

06-11-2006, 06:13 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	Does it have a navy rear sight? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-11-2006, 11:28 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	Unless the barrel is numbered to the gun and is properly proofed, it most likely is a replacement. Even if it is numbered, it does not fit the specs for a navy. I don't believe the Luger ever was an Olympic pistol, and I doubt that the navy sights would have provided the precision required at that level of competition. As far as having an impact on the price of a naval model, you aren't going to be able to touch a Navy in beautiful condition for anywhere near $1800, so the owner has priced it as non-original. As the more intelligent Ron has stated, it is a mite high but not out of reason. If it sings to you and you can afford it...go for it. P.S. If you do get it, how about some pics. It sounds like a neat gun and should be a terrific shooter. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-11-2006, 10:55 PM	#5
bigbill User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: kitchener,ontario, canada Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	yes ron, it has the 100/200 naval sight

06-12-2006, 10:09 AM	#7
bigbill User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: kitchener,ontario, canada Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, thanks for your insight. We had a show yesterday, but the fellow was not there this time. At the last show, he had the luger and a full auto Uzi just sitting on his table, without trigger locks and not held down with a wire. In Canada, we have some very stringent rules for displaying weapons, and he made quite a stir with the people who operated the show because he refused to lock his guns up properly. I hope to see him at the next show and i am going to ask him if i can take some pictures with my digital camera to post for the forum. thanks again bigbill

06-12-2006, 10:12 AM	#8
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Remember, there are repo 2 position naval sights out there....

06-12-2006, 10:20 AM	#9
bigbill User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: kitchener,ontario, canada Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	policeluger, thanks, I am not proficient enough to know how to determine a fake, but from what i remember, every thing appears genuine except the barrel. If he will let me photo it, you experts can decide. hopefully he will follow the rules about displaying and be allowed back in the shows. Bigbill

06-12-2006, 11:21 AM	#10
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	A clear shot of the left side of the sight, showing the cut serrations on the top rear would be key....

06-12-2006, 12:00 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	A little off topic, but Bigbill, I was not aware that full auto guns were legal in Canada for private ownership... can you brief us on what the laws are like up there for what our ATF calls Class 3 guns? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-12-2006, 02:50 PM	#12
bigbill User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: kitchener,ontario, canada Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, I would be happy to explain some of our Canadian laws to the forum. We can only own full automatic weapons if we had the special permit allowing them prior to either 1978 or 1979. If you did not acquire that permit prior to those dates, you can never get the permit even if you were not born until after those dates. In this way the Canadian government has mandated that these weapons will become extinct in the hands of private people as the permit holders die off. The estates of these permit holders are allowed to sell these weapons, upon their death, but only to other permit holders, of which there are fewer every year; or sell them to museums. Canadians also have to register every weapon they purchase, even down to air rifles and pellet guns of a certain cfm power. You may have heard of our infamous "gun registry system", put in place ten years ago by the Liberal government of the time, which was only going to cost 2-3 million dollars to set up and maintain; but which at this time has cost over 2 Billion Cdn. dollars. It was suspossed to stop illegal guns and their use in Canada, but it is a complete failure. Criminals do not buy or register legal guns; they steal them, smuggle them in from your country illegally or even "rent" them from other criminals. In order for a person to own a handgun, you must first take and pass several courses in handling guns, then apply for a special handgun ownership permit. If you pass the police checks, you must also belong to a registered gun club, which is willing to vouche for you before you can get another permit allowing you to transport your guns to the club for target shooting purposes only. Canadians can not get a weapon for "personal safety reasons" and only police or special security guards can actually carry on their person in public. The requirements for storage are very stringent and people who are robbed are usually "blamed" for losing their guns, no matter how strong their storage was. Also we do not the right to use our guns in defense of our selves, family or our own house. We have no 2nd Amenment rights, and in the past gun owners have been sued sucessfully by the criminals who robbed them, and also sent to jail for using excessive force and their guns against people who have broken into their own homes. Although some people disparage Americans, I envy you your freedoms where firearms are concerned, because I, like you and most members of this forum, are law abiding, responsible gun owners, not criminals. Sorry for being so long winded, but you got me going. Some days I just want to move to Utah. Bigbill

06-13-2006, 11:03 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	thanks so much for the briefing on gun laws in Canada... that explains a lot. We have a few Canadian members, but not many compared to our overal number... your explanation makes the reason why clear... Utah is a very gun friendly state... I am sure they would welcome you. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-13-2006, 02:02 PM	#14
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Is this gun an old model(1900) or new model (1906)? I know of a couple of old model in 30 cal with 7" bbl. that are Navy Proofed. Regards, Mike Jones

06-13-2006, 04:31 PM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Hi Mike. Charlie K. does mention that a few 7.75x175mm barreled M1900s exist with stock lug and adjustable rear sight on page 26 of his MNP book, but no mention of any being Navy proofed. In fact, he states that most of the 7" barrelled guns in the 10,000 to 10,050 range, were believed to be for a South American order. I expect that these were from the 10K prototype range, rather that standard production serialization. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

06-13-2006, 04:53 PM	#16
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hi Tom, I am aware of the 7" 10,000 range guns, these are not Navy proofed. I know of two 1900 model guns that are early numbers that are Navy proofed, similar to the 1904 model. Mike

06-13-2006, 09:40 PM	#17
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	I saw this gun at that show...it is a genuine 1914 Navy dated 1916......the barrel has been replaced by a 8" unit that has a different finish than the gun....the barrel has a faint crown M and a faint serial # that matches the Luger........I have no idea when it was replaced.....

06-14-2006, 08:49 AM	#18
bigbill User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: kitchener,ontario, canada Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	lugercollector, thanks for your help. Do you thionk it is worth the $2000 Cdn he wants for it?? Bigbill

06-14-2006, 09:14 PM	#19
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	I was willing to offer him around $1400 with the shoulder stock....he seems stuck on the $2g figure.....I would not pay his price....I doubt you could recoup the money down the line....but!!!...if you really like the gun......