Carbine Hunt

[Navy]

All,

The thought came to me today (Only thought I have had lately that did not die of lonliness) that it might be kinda cool to organize a hunting expedition where the only weapon used would be Luger carbines.

.

Any interest?

Tom A.

[Pete Ebbink]

Tom,

The small group of luger carbine owners willing to shoot their carbines might be an even smaller group.

How about opening the invite up to additional folks with stocked Navy and stocked Artillery lugers as well ???

[AGE]

Do state laws apply at this place? PA doesn't permit hunting anything with a semi-auto, and an energy requirement may apply for bigger animals. NY probably doesn't permit pistols.

[lew1]

You are lucky. Here, the state laws apply on private lands also.

But there are a few areas in the state where the game warden will not leave the road to talk with the hunter - which means that, in those locations, about anything goes.

[lugerholsterrepair]

I shoot my Artillery's and Navy 9MM stocked pistols out to 200 yards with good accuracy and they hit hard. I also shoot my stocked .30 Luger with similar results. I think accuracy is key to a clean kill. The 9MM was good enough for the Germans on 170 LB men, should work on a good sized animal if shot placement is correct.
The first and only deer I ever took was with a .30 Carbine, a one shot kill.
I must agree with Tac on one point, You owe the animal respect and an instant and clean despatch. Ideal as this is, it is not always possible even under the best of circumstances. Something to think about and strive for however.
Personally, after my War years I have no desire to see anything killed. Animals in particular. I do not object to hunting, I know it is necessary to harvest but I don't want to participate. Of course, I would do so were circumstances such that it were necessary.
I do love shooting...Golf balls are my favorite prey.
Jerry Burney

[John Sabato]

Best use of Golf Balls I have ever heard of Jerry... never found much sense in the game... kinda like long range artillery shooting without the benefit of sights...


... and TAC, I don't think anyone has mentioned using FMJ ammo for the hunt... I personally don't kill anything that I am not going to eat except bugs and varmints... (the four or more legged variety)...

I would prefer not to get into 2-legged varmint shooting unless they pose a serious social threat encounter... terrorists would be open season at any time of year.

[jamese]

Wow Jerry,

Never thought of using golfballs thats a great Idea, kinda like skeet shooting
My brother always asks me to go golfing with him.
The other golfers don't mind that your shooting a gun, what do they charge you for greeen fees ?


Jim

[lew1]

I went hunting once, in my area, sat in a deer stand and obtained my deer. That was not much of a challenge, so I have not done it since. I can obtain plenty of meat otherwise so there is no need from that aspect.

I have several brothers-in-laws, who live in a rather rural area of the state, who hunt as a main source of their meat and have stocked freezers for the off season. (One of them also has chickens and (domestic) rabbits.) They use what they harvest and I partake when we visit.

But hunting has been beneficial for the animals. When I was a child many years ago, Kentucky had no deer population. Everybody had already killed them all (for all practical purposes).

They have started to re-introduce black bear to the state, which would not have occured the hunters monies.

With the introduction of regulated hunting (including the regulation of the type of ammo) and hunting permits, the deer population has soared over the years - from almost zero. The regulation protects the animals and the permits from hunters raised monies (and no monies from general revenues) which allowed the wildlife services to operate.

Now they are in the process of re-introducing Elk to Kentucky. Without the hunters and their monies, none of this would have occured.

The deer population has soared, actually beyond control. I am 3 miles south of Cincinnati as the crow flies, and the subdivisions go a further 6 miles south. Yet it is not unusual to see a deer cross the Interstate, or to see their bodies on the Interstate where they have been hit by a vehicle. Nor is it unusual to see them in my subdivision or in my yard (which upsets my wife when I point to them and say there is supper).

So hunting, properly and reasonably controlled, serves a purpose.

[Ron Smith]

Jim,

When we go to the desert in Eastern Oregon we always take some golf balls . We play .22 Golf. A golf ball will really take off when hit just right. One hit with a 45-70 usually ends up somewhere in the next county.

[cirelaw]

Eric here, i recenly purchased a 100% evedenly unfired, 1920 9mm luger carbine, I done some researh and most are selling close to $20,000 but "joe salter has a 1920 variation, for around $7500 i think, before you spend on Georges finest, do your homework, beware of 'piece meal' varieties, Mr simpson a reputable dude, is selling 2 or 3 1902s, but no 1920s much rarer, A hint, a legit 1920 in 9, 3 known have a "v" suffix, just email me, ERIC BRUNING, esq at 'SNOOKEM13@AOL.COM, I foward closeps, God bless the healers,

[cirelaw]

eric another post stroke/coma brain boop, The 1920 carbines in 9mm had a 't' not a "v" they were latvian 1937 maybe

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Eric,

I am not sure who is telling you or how you have concluded that all 1920's 9 mm carbines should be in the 't' suffix block only.

If Ralph Shattuck, he has probably forgotten about this one that went through his WOL shop a year or two ago.

2 guns with a 't' suffix should not lead one to believe all such 1920 9mm carbines must have a 't' suffix.

Also...be cautious of those 100% finish lugers. A gun might be 100% finish, but the more important question should be - Is the finish DWM factory original ?


(The text, below, is what I have posted to you on Jan's Gun Board, as well.)

" Hi Eric,

I recall at least two (2) more 1920 carbines in 9mm going through the Shattuck's WOL shop in the past 3-4 years. Here is one that was listed on one of his previous Lists. I did a cut& paste from his preivous web site list to a MS Word document file; for future reference about this 9 mm 1920's carbine.

As you can see, this one did not have a 't' suffix after the serial number. As you can see from the WOL ad below, this carbine had a serial number of # 36640.

I saw another one (or maybe the same one) in person that Shattuck had at a past Reno gun show about 2 years ago. It was mint as if it just came out of a DWM shop, yesterday. It might have been the one described below, but at the Reno show I did not make note of the serial number as the finish had blinded me

" Item Number: 1153 Stock Number: 6489 LUGER, DWM, 11 7/8â?�, 36640, 9MM. CASED 1920 CARBINE. OWNED BY JOHN MORGAN, TOTAL MINT IN + OUT. AMERICAN EAGLE Price: "

[cirelaw]

Eric here, im only passing on what i was told, Ralph owns another 1920/ 9mm he informed me that his carbine is also a 't' suffix, The boys in all our florida gunshows, have never, seen one so pristene, i've been offered $24k but wont sell, Its like my 1906 french d'arms ettoine luger, where would i ever find a replacement, like trading in a loving wife, please send me an email from any of our 'luger duders' i've got great closeups taken today of each marking on both beauties, God bless Eric J Bruning, Esq. also i'm purchasing the way cool, aberchrombie leather holster featured on toms, 'phoenixinvestmentarms.com site ya!!

[Pete Ebbink]

Eric,

Re : The A&F carbine pouch.

1. Does it look like leather that is nearly 85 years old ?

2. Does it smell like "old leather" ?

3. The white stitching looks like modern synthetic thread, IMO. Why would stitching over 85 years old still be so white ?

[Imperial Arms]

Eric,

Don't be a fool, and stop throwing your money in the air!! That A&F carbine case being offered by Phoenix investments is a piece of s***. Do you believe that A&F, the most famous sports store in the US during the 1900-1920's, would sell a piece of junk in such poor quality. Wake up, look at the flaws. The person who made that case, must have been drunk or high on drugs!

Lastly, do not believe everything you hear or what is told to you.

Good luck,
Albert

[cirelaw]

Dear Albert, how can an expert, evaluate the integrety of a relic so claimed, without seeing it first hand, Members of this forum who wish to remain annonomous, have seen, smelt and felt this piece, Its like determining a girl is no virgin, from a 'picture' in your wallet, i will send you closeups, i beleive the holster isnt the issue, but the players are, Ps you were, or others were wrong about the french luger I bought from Tom, and I was forced to submit dna for it and Ralphs' 1920 9mm luger carbine, you know what they say, "opinions are like ?????, God Luck, No Disrespect meant, You have a long History of being a gentleman, and next id love to purchase your russian! YA RABATAU NAY ZAVODYA humbly your eric, esq.

[cirelaw]

Dear Albert, how can an expert, evaluate the integrety of a relic so claimed, without seeing it first hand, Members of this forum who wish to remain annonomous, have seen, smelt and felt this piece, Its like determining a girl is no virgin, from a 'picture' in your wallet, i will send you closeups, i beleive the holster isnt the issue, but the players are, Ps you were, or others were wrong about the french luger I bought from Tom, and I was forced to submit dna for it and Ralphs' 1920 9mm luger carbine, you know what they say, "opinions are like ?????, God Luck, No Disrespect meant, You have a long History of being a gentleman, and next id love to purchase your russian! YA RABATAU NAY ZAVODYA humbly your eric, esq.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Eric,

Albert is usually right in such early luger matters; you may not want to discount his advice. But it is only $ 3500 and it is your money and not really anyone else's business how it is spent.

FWIW...Here is a photo of an A&F carbine pouch in Kenyon's 1st. book "Lugers at Random" on page 402.

At the time it was photographed it belonged in the collection of luger book author Michael Reese.

From this photo, you can compare construction details of this Reese A&F carbine pouch to the "item" for sale with Tom/Ralph at Phoenix Investment Arms. Here is a link to the "item' for sale at PIA :

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/afcarrycase.htm

Some of the details I note on this Reese pouch that are not on the PIA offering are :

1. Totally different handle construction quality and style of handle.

2. The Reese pouch has its closure flaps re-inforced with metal studs.

3. The Reese pouch has larger closure flaps and the closure straps are sewn lower/down towards the ends of the flaps. The dimensions on the PIA item seem all wrong with the flaps too small and the straps sewn up too high towards the top of the flaps.

4. The style of the A&F log stamping on the Reese pouch is a different style that on the PIA pouch. (I have posted photos of both styles of A&F logo's used on other holsters of the time.

5. The shape of the closure straps where they are sewn to the flaps on the Reese pouch have a unique shape that is not duplicated on the PIA offering.




Here are the A&F logo photo scans from Euguene Bender's large book on luger holsters; showing two styles of A&F logos :

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Eric,

Your comments are welcomed, and you may be correct that some people/members may wish to remain annonomous who may have examined the so-called A&F carbine case from PIA. You have the right to believe any body who you want, but I would not be convinced that this A&F case is genuine. It does not have the quality, workmanship nor consistency of a carbine case made in the 1910-1925 period. For your information, I own the two BEST/FINEST Luger carbine cases known to exist (including the A&F case which Pete has posted above from the previous Reese collection) and I know very well the details to examine. Sometimes it is necessary to examine an item in ones hands before making an opinion, but I can make an exception in this situation with regards to the A&F case from PIA because it reveals too many inconsistencies and flaws. Pete has provided you some good points and details to consider, and then afterwards, make your own judgement.

Some so-called 'experts' will never tell you the truth, but if you ask me, I shall tell it to your face. In other words, if the item is wrong, I will say so based on my 20+ years of experience; if the item is correct, I shall congratulate you on your purchase or find; or if I am not sure, I shall say that I am not fully qualified to make an opinion in that field. I admit that I am not an expert in all German pistols, but I know my 'stuff' because my opinions come from experience, expertise, knowledge, literature and comparisons. 'Without blowing my whistle', I have examined the finest Luger and Mauser pistols/carbines known to exist in very prominent collections, so I believe that I can give you some good advice, with all your due respect, of course. The only important Luger which I have not yet examined in my hands is the .45 Luger. However, I have examined in my hands the three other .45 pistols which used to be in the Abermann collection, in addition to a few other pre-war German .45 caliber pistols.

I am sorry if I have disappointed you as a result of you gaining the wrong 'picture' of some unfortunate situations in the collector's society, but hopefully time and experience will enlighten you.

Good luck,
Albert



PS: The carbine scabbard shown above (in my collection) is made of pigskin and follows the European style/design. Some collectors would believe that these scabbards were made by DWM, but it is my opinion that a maker would have made these scabbards for DWM who offered them as accessories.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Albert, A very nice example to be sure! I have never seen one made like this...No carry handle, shoulder strap?
The cleaning rod sleeve and double mag pouch are a nice touch.
Very unusual leather.
All nicely crafted. A case anyone would be proud to own.
I wonder if you could elucidate on what this case is lined with?
Thanks, Jerry Burney