Dirty Cryin' Shame - Page 2

Big Norm · 08-08-2001, 04:35 PM

Johnny,

I just happened to have a 1915 arty on my table and the proof mark is an eagle on the right hand side of the barrel about a quarter of an inch from the receiver.

Big Norm

Big Norm · 08-08-2001, 04:59 PM

Daniel,

I agree with you. Normally, I am a purist collector. But I recently bought four model 1914 navy Lugers. These guns were U-G-L-Y. I mean they where rated a 6 pack of beer! That means I would normally drink a six pack of beer to even look at them. They were destined for shooter status or parts gun status. But I know how tough it is for people to even find these guns yet alone afford them. I turned these guns over to a restorer and turned them into beautiful princes. Somehow, I feel good about what I did. I know that 1914 DWM artillery will not be a purists collectors gun. But with a proper restoration, somebody is going to be proud of it. I would e-mail the guy who found the 1914 DWM arty and give him the name of your restorer. If the restorer is good then it can be turned from an ugly duckling into a princess. The key words here are 'good restorer'.

Big Norm

Johnny Peppers · 08-08-2001, 05:54 PM

The eagle on the right side of the DWM LP08's (barrel and receiver) is the DWM test proof, and is distinctly different from the Erfurt proof. Your previous post indicated that Erfurt made all the LP08 barrels and that the Erfurt proof was on the left side of the barrel. Where does this information come from?

Big Norm · 08-10-2001, 04:12 AM

Johnny,

I knew that someone was going to get me on that one. Until I can dig out the source, I can only use Jan Stills "Imperial Lugers" pg 92 under LONG P.08 DWM.

ARMY TEST PROOF located on right receiver, barrel and left breechblock. Many have Erfurt Army Test Eagle on barrel.

This point was made by Stills in an area covering a general discussion of all LP-08's. I strained you eyeballs looking at Stills picture of the proof mark and then I looked at a 1915, 1918 and (2) 1914 Erfurt LP-08's as well as a 1912 Erfurt military and they had what looked like the same proof mark right hand side of the barrel. These are the Erfurt stick leg eagles (see Lugers At Random proof marks #17). The DWM eagle as pictured in other parts of the book have different legs (see Lugers At Random proof marks #14). On pg 92, it seems that Stills drew the DWM eagle. All of the DWM 4 inch barreled guns in Stills book have the type #14 eagle. All of the Erfurt 4 inch barrel Lugers seem to have the type #17 eagle.

But it was night time and I couldn't sleep so I started looking at the left hand side of the barrel. There was a second type of proof mark on two of the three Erfurts and it isn't the eagle that Stills describes or any other kind of eagle. It semms to look simular to Lugers at Ramdoms #16, first image, but its different. It looks more like an 'M' with a crown.

While I admit that this does not vidicate my statement . It helps me lean in the right direcion. I will continue to look for the original source.

Big Norm

Johnny Peppers · 08-11-2001, 12:12 AM

Norm,

Without the aid of magnification the two proof marks do look alike, but under good magnification the proofs are definitely different. The breast section of the eagle on the DWM proofs is made up of two lines, where the Erfurt has no lines through the breast and a single line for the neck of the eagle. As noted, the legs of the eagles are different also.

Maybe the information came from Harry Jones early book as he states that the LP08 Erfurt was made through 1918.

Daniel · 08-11-2001, 09:59 PM

Well, one thing I'm not is a "purist" my ex-wife tried to make me into one of those ...didn't work,(:>) I guess I'd say;I'm "practical". My view is ,if you can make it better than it is ,then do what you have do to improve and increase it's value and longevity. Most colleges and universities offer classes and workshops on restoration of art and fine antiques. Even the Statue of Liberty, Cistene Chapel and the Mona Lisa have been restored or touched up. I picked up a 1902 DWM carbine without a rear 3 position sight and shoulder stock...made both and now the piece is worth four times what I paid for it. Found a Banner Eagle " v " series with the wrong barrel on it, changed it and a world known luger expert looked at it and said "$8,000"...ten times what I paid for it.I bought a $1000 1920 DWM carbine, no slider on rear sight,front sight missing ,no stock..got all the parts and put it together..insured it for $5000. And Big Norm, you're right, I'm proud to own it and my grandson won't care what I did to it when he owns it.I've rattled on enough..after collecting for 40 years in this hobby... me thinks there is room for everybody and their standards and still plenty of lugers around to satisfy every collector.

The artist-craftsman that did my stock lug reads the Forum and I did call his attention to the 1914 Artie, but he's usually swamped with work so I'll leave it up to him to do any contacting for more. Yeah, he's the key words a "good restorer"...The best!...Gotta go, my cell phone is ringing and the traffic light just turned green...Later,Daniel

08-08-2001, 04:35 PM	#21
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 Johnny, I just happened to have a 1915 arty on my table and the proof mark is an eagle on the right hand side of the barrel about a quarter of an inch from the receiver. Big Norm

08-08-2001, 04:59 PM	#22
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Dirty Cryin' Shame Daniel, I agree with you. Normally, I am a purist collector. But I recently bought four model 1914 navy Lugers. These guns were U-G-L-Y. I mean they where rated a 6 pack of beer! That means I would normally drink a six pack of beer to even look at them. They were destined for shooter status or parts gun status. But I know how tough it is for people to even find these guns yet alone afford them. I turned these guns over to a restorer and turned them into beautiful princes. Somehow, I feel good about what I did. I know that 1914 DWM artillery will not be a purists collectors gun. But with a proper restoration, somebody is going to be proud of it. I would e-mail the guy who found the 1914 DWM arty and give him the name of your restorer. If the restorer is good then it can be turned from an ugly duckling into a princess. The key words here are 'good restorer'. Big Norm

08-08-2001, 05:54 PM	#23
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 The eagle on the right side of the DWM LP08's (barrel and receiver) is the DWM test proof, and is distinctly different from the Erfurt proof. Your previous post indicated that Erfurt made all the LP08 barrels and that the Erfurt proof was on the left side of the barrel. Where does this information come from?

08-10-2001, 04:12 AM	#24
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	1914 DWM LPO8 PROOF MARKS Johnny, I knew that someone was going to get me on that one. Until I can dig out the source, I can only use Jan Stills "Imperial Lugers" pg 92 under LONG P.08 DWM. ARMY TEST PROOF located on right receiver, barrel and left breechblock. Many have Erfurt Army Test Eagle on barrel. This point was made by Stills in an area covering a general discussion of all LP-08's. I strained you eyeballs looking at Stills picture of the proof mark and then I looked at a 1915, 1918 and (2) 1914 Erfurt LP-08's as well as a 1912 Erfurt military and they had what looked like the same proof mark right hand side of the barrel. These are the Erfurt stick leg eagles (see Lugers At Random proof marks #17). The DWM eagle as pictured in other parts of the book have different legs (see Lugers At Random proof marks #14). On pg 92, it seems that Stills drew the DWM eagle. All of the DWM 4 inch barreled guns in Stills book have the type #14 eagle. All of the Erfurt 4 inch barrel Lugers seem to have the type #17 eagle. But it was night time and I couldn't sleep so I started looking at the left hand side of the barrel. There was a second type of proof mark on two of the three Erfurts and it isn't the eagle that Stills describes or any other kind of eagle. It semms to look simular to Lugers at Ramdoms #16, first image, but its different. It looks more like an 'M' with a crown. While I admit that this does not vidicate my statement . It helps me lean in the right direcion. I will continue to look for the original source. Big Norm

08-11-2001, 12:12 AM	#25
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 PROOF MARKS Norm, Without the aid of magnification the two proof marks do look alike, but under good magnification the proofs are definitely different. The breast section of the eagle on the DWM proofs is made up of two lines, where the Erfurt has no lines through the breast and a single line for the neck of the eagle. As noted, the legs of the eagles are different also. Maybe the information came from Harry Jones early book as he states that the LP08 Erfurt was made through 1918.

08-11-2001, 09:59 PM	#26
Daniel User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ct. and Ma. Posts: 152 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dirty Cryin' Shame Well, one thing I'm not is a "purist" my ex-wife tried to make me into one of those ...didn't work,(:>) I guess I'd say;I'm "practical". My view is ,if you can make it better than it is ,then do what you have do to improve and increase it's value and longevity. Most colleges and universities offer classes and workshops on restoration of art and fine antiques. Even the Statue of Liberty, Cistene Chapel and the Mona Lisa have been restored or touched up. I picked up a 1902 DWM carbine without a rear 3 position sight and shoulder stock...made both and now the piece is worth four times what I paid for it. Found a Banner Eagle " v " series with the wrong barrel on it, changed it and a world known luger expert looked at it and said "$8,000"...ten times what I paid for it.I bought a $1000 1920 DWM carbine, no slider on rear sight,front sight missing ,no stock..got all the parts and put it together..insured it for $5000. And Big Norm, you're right, I'm proud to own it and my grandson won't care what I did to it when he owns it.I've rattled on enough..after collecting for 40 years in this hobby... me thinks there is room for everybody and their standards and still plenty of lugers around to satisfy every collector. The artist-craftsman that did my stock lug reads the Forum and I did call his attention to the 1914 Artie, but he's usually swamped with work so I'll leave it up to him to do any contacting for more. Yeah, he's the key words a "good restorer"...The best!...Gotta go, my cell phone is ringing and the traffic light just turned green...Later,Daniel