Dirty Cryin' Shame

Big Norm · 08-08-2001, 06:22 AM

Tom,

I have just quickly reviewed John Walthers book "The Luger Book" pg 149 thru 152 and and I don't think that the result really would confirm one way or the other about who was first. Both factories where scheduled to manufacture the LP-08's with Erfurt scheduled to manufactured most of them and Erfurt given priority. Erfurt was supposed to manufacture 75,000 and DWM 69,000 over a 5 year time frame. Not a big difference. Then the war got in the way and schedules changed. One 1915 Erfurt artillery has been authenticated.

Examining the serial numbers does not seem to help. Erfurt serial numbers are from 63 to 9448b with P-08's interspersed within that range. 1914 DWM serial numbers are 161 to 1995a. Not a big help.

Erfurt production is estimated at 23,000 while DWM 1914 LP-08's production is estimated at 5,000. Erfurt made all the barrels for all artilleries in all years and their proof marks are on the left hand side of the barrels.

I found John Walthers book to contain more information than either Jan Still's or "Lugers At Random". These three books are the only authorative books that I have at my disposal. But if you have someone else to quote then I am sure that Jerry Peters, who is a friend of mine, will have the book and I will happily look it up.

It is true that the chamber dated 1914 DWM can be faked by a determined tool maker as can any Luger ever made. So far, I have only heard of Krieghoff's and ku's being faked. But I am sure there are others. It is also true that I have run across dealers that swear that a 1914 DWM was never made. I have talked to Simpson and he can not recall ever having a chamber dated 1914 DWM for sale. But when I go shopping, I always carry a list of serial numbers with me of magazines, stocks and 1914 DWM artilleries. You never know when you'll get lucky.

I would feel much more comfortable buying 1914 DWM's than I do buying Kreighoff's. There was no standardization of Kreighoff's between years. A good restorer can hide a restored Kreighoff pretty easily. Much of the work was done by slave labor and Kreighoff did not even want to make them. After 1937 all of the Kreighoff's were made of left over and rejected military parts from the original and last contract. Bluing standards changed from year to year. The 'thumb print' wasn't on all of them after 1937. On and on. A 'cottage industry' faker can get away with more money by faking them. It takes a good eye for detail and a knowlegable Luger man to detect a true Kreighoff. And I am not so certain of the 'experts' that I have met. Few people in this world want to admit that they don't know. Gun people and otherwise.

Artilleries are pretty standard except for front sights and chamber dates and that helps in eliminating redone guns. It does not eliminate it totally, but it helps. But even adjustible front sights can be sometimes found on all years of WW1 military LP-08's. In reality, I have a harder time finding 1918's then Erfurts.

Wow! Did I leave myself open to be hammered my the members of this forum. Its too late tonight to do it so tomorrow I will try to give a formula for price diffentials between the different years of artillery lugers. Ich brauche etwas aspirine.

Big Norm

08-08-2001, 06:22 AM	#19
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 Tom, I have just quickly reviewed John Walthers book "The Luger Book" pg 149 thru 152 and and I don't think that the result really would confirm one way or the other about who was first. Both factories where scheduled to manufacture the LP-08's with Erfurt scheduled to manufactured most of them and Erfurt given priority. Erfurt was supposed to manufacture 75,000 and DWM 69,000 over a 5 year time frame. Not a big difference. Then the war got in the way and schedules changed. One 1915 Erfurt artillery has been authenticated. Examining the serial numbers does not seem to help. Erfurt serial numbers are from 63 to 9448b with P-08's interspersed within that range. 1914 DWM serial numbers are 161 to 1995a. Not a big help. Erfurt production is estimated at 23,000 while DWM 1914 LP-08's production is estimated at 5,000. Erfurt made all the barrels for all artilleries in all years and their proof marks are on the left hand side of the barrels. I found John Walthers book to contain more information than either Jan Still's or "Lugers At Random". These three books are the only authorative books that I have at my disposal. But if you have someone else to quote then I am sure that Jerry Peters, who is a friend of mine, will have the book and I will happily look it up. It is true that the chamber dated 1914 DWM can be faked by a determined tool maker as can any Luger ever made. So far, I have only heard of Krieghoff's and ku's being faked. But I am sure there are others. It is also true that I have run across dealers that swear that a 1914 DWM was never made. I have talked to Simpson and he can not recall ever having a chamber dated 1914 DWM for sale. But when I go shopping, I always carry a list of serial numbers with me of magazines, stocks and 1914 DWM artilleries. You never know when you'll get lucky. I would feel much more comfortable buying 1914 DWM's than I do buying Kreighoff's. There was no standardization of Kreighoff's between years. A good restorer can hide a restored Kreighoff pretty easily. Much of the work was done by slave labor and Kreighoff did not even want to make them. After 1937 all of the Kreighoff's were made of left over and rejected military parts from the original and last contract. Bluing standards changed from year to year. The 'thumb print' wasn't on all of them after 1937. On and on. A 'cottage industry' faker can get away with more money by faking them. It takes a good eye for detail and a knowlegable Luger man to detect a true Kreighoff. And I am not so certain of the 'experts' that I have met. Few people in this world want to admit that they don't know. Gun people and otherwise. Artilleries are pretty standard except for front sights and chamber dates and that helps in eliminating redone guns. It does not eliminate it totally, but it helps. But even adjustible front sights can be sometimes found on all years of WW1 military LP-08's. In reality, I have a harder time finding 1918's then Erfurts. Wow! Did I leave myself open to be hammered my the members of this forum. Its too late tonight to do it so tomorrow I will try to give a formula for price diffentials between the different years of artillery lugers. Ich brauche etwas aspirine. Big Norm