Russian...

Pete Ebbink · 02-09-2006, 10:15 PM

...now on G-B...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=43648157

Imperial Arms · 02-09-2006, 10:41 PM

A 'genuine' M1906 Russian with a 'Buy it' price of $10,500 - to good to be true!

Next!

Pete Ebbink · 02-09-2006, 10:47 PM

Hi Albert.

Same seller has a $ 22.5K cased '02 carbine...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=43649334

Big Norm · 02-10-2006, 07:49 AM

I would like to see some pictures of, say, the ejector and the thumb safety before I would consider trying to get a more knowlegable man that me to verify it. I get very nervous even considering HK's. But this is an interesting Luger to look at. Just too expensive for me, authentic or not.
Big Norm

Navy · 02-10-2006, 08:36 AM

I have it on very reliable sources that there will be a work published in the not too distant future that will "explain" why everything thought to be true about "Russian" lugers is ...wrong.

Tom A

Ponyman · 02-10-2006, 10:51 AM

Prior to publication of that work, could someone bring a novice up to speed on what is 'thought to be true about "Russian" lugers'?

drbuster · 02-10-2006, 08:56 PM

Tom, I will be very interested to see that "future" publication on Russian lugers, and especially will be anxious to see who the "authority" will be. We do know little about Russian contract lugers, the source being mainly Lugers at Random. We know (or do we?) that there were a very few 1900 made (<100). The only one I know of is in Ralph Shattuck's collection. There were guessed to be 1000 of the 1906 variation made that had the configuration of the one here presented on Gunbroker. They were supposed to be sent to Czarist Russia for purchase by officers. I don't recall ever seeing documantion of this or any description or photos of any accessories, such as holsters, cleaning rods, etc. Thus I would love to hear any further details, maybe from someone with knowledge from Russia itself. I always suspected that with the fall of the Soviet Union, more Russian lugers would surface. Perhaps this is what we are seeing. One final major caveat is that to buy such a purported rare and desirable collector's item on a medium such as Gunbroker, one must have faith, money, expertise and an iron clad inspection period.

Navy · 02-10-2006, 11:03 PM

Dr Buster said: One final major caveat is that to buy such a purported rare and desirable collector's item on a medium such as Gunbroker, one must have faith, money, expertise and an iron clad inspection period.

The faith and money part are givens; the expertise is a hard thing to accomplish and the inspection period is moot, given the lack of expertise. There can be no expertise in judging something's originality if it is a fraud from inception.

Sir, in jailhouse terms, this is what is known as the "Long con". Run away.

Tom A.

drbuster · 02-11-2006, 12:14 AM

Tom, I completely understand your stance here but I, for one, would surely like to examine this piece in the presence of a Mike Krause, Doug Smith or Brad Simpson....it MAY be the real thing!

Pete Ebbink · 02-11-2006, 01:04 PM

Hi Tom,

Can you hint at where this article will appear and when...so folks can keep an eye out for its plublication...???

Navy · 02-11-2006, 02:09 PM

Hi Pete,

I am not aware of the publication venue; when I know more and am at liberty to disclose, I will.

Tom A

drbuster · 02-11-2006, 06:35 PM

I, for one, will eagerly await your notification, Tom.

Big Norm · 02-12-2006, 12:32 AM

Everyone here is showing great wisdom and I am eagerly looking forward to TomA's mentioned article. Once I had a chance to buy a restored Russian from a well known collector /dealer and I passed. Too much counterfeiting going on around here for me to try for something that I know so little about. I still would like very much to see more detailed pictures of the above gun before I say anything.
Big Norm

Stu · 02-13-2006, 06:01 PM

Well.... Browsing a few local friends for a 1911 frame and this is what I found.

The first, (more worn) gun is the one on gunbroker. The second, (not for sale currently), has been fired, maybe twice

. It looks completely untouched apart form a couple of tiny marks on the frame rail and the mark on the back of the frame from the toggle. Straw is 98% ? Both bores truly excellent.

The gun for sale has a little overall 'age' to it.

Both are so far beyond my ability to evaluate it's unreal.

But ifthey turn out to be genuine, at least I got to play with both !!

The carbine he has for sale made me drool, but same comments apply.

He seems to be a genuine guy I've dealt with before, certainly a pleasant chap. He would very much like to authenticate or disprove the originality of these pieces as he's a middle man in the deal.

Got to lie down for a minute; more money than my cars worth....

Stu

Dwight Gruber · 02-13-2006, 09:00 PM

Are authentic Russian crossed-rifle chamber stamps roll-died and then finished (as American Eagle stamps & etc.), or are they stamped after bluing?

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 02-13-2006, 11:34 PM

Roll die before bluing. No halo. Very crisp lines. Blue all the way to the bottom of the impression.

Stu · 02-14-2006, 07:20 PM

The seller would like to know what markings should be on the extractor.

The best description I can give is as follows;

3, A, P, R (the r is reversed), something like an R on it's back, then a couple that defy description.

Any clues ?

Stu

02-09-2006, 10:15 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Russian... ...now on G-B... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=43648157

02-10-2006, 10:51 AM	#6
Ponyman User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlantic County, NJ, USA Posts: 138 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Prior to publication of that work, could someone bring a novice up to speed on what is 'thought to be true about "Russian" lugers'? __________________ "The Constitution is intended for use by a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other." ~ John Quincy Adams

02-13-2006, 11:34 PM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	Roll die before bluing. No halo. Very crisp lines. Blue all the way to the bottom of the impression. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-09-2006, 10:41 PM	#2
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	A 'genuine' M1906 Russian with a 'Buy it' price of $10,500 - to good to be true! Next!

02-09-2006, 10:47 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Albert. Same seller has a $ 22.5K cased '02 carbine... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=43649334

02-10-2006, 07:49 AM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I would like to see some pictures of, say, the ejector and the thumb safety before I would consider trying to get a more knowlegable man that me to verify it. I get very nervous even considering HK's. But this is an interesting Luger to look at. Just too expensive for me, authentic or not. Big Norm

02-10-2006, 08:36 AM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I have it on very reliable sources that there will be a work published in the not too distant future that will "explain" why everything thought to be true about "Russian" lugers is ...wrong. Tom A

02-10-2006, 08:56 PM	#7
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Tom, I will be very interested to see that "future" publication on Russian lugers, and especially will be anxious to see who the "authority" will be. We do know little about Russian contract lugers, the source being mainly Lugers at Random. We know (or do we?) that there were a very few 1900 made (<100). The only one I know of is in Ralph Shattuck's collection. There were guessed to be 1000 of the 1906 variation made that had the configuration of the one here presented on Gunbroker. They were supposed to be sent to Czarist Russia for purchase by officers. I don't recall ever seeing documantion of this or any description or photos of any accessories, such as holsters, cleaning rods, etc. Thus I would love to hear any further details, maybe from someone with knowledge from Russia itself. I always suspected that with the fall of the Soviet Union, more Russian lugers would surface. Perhaps this is what we are seeing. One final major caveat is that to buy such a purported rare and desirable collector's item on a medium such as Gunbroker, one must have faith, money, expertise and an iron clad inspection period.

02-10-2006, 11:03 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Dr Buster said: One final major caveat is that to buy such a purported rare and desirable collector's item on a medium such as Gunbroker, one must have faith, money, expertise and an iron clad inspection period. The faith and money part are givens; the expertise is a hard thing to accomplish and the inspection period is moot, given the lack of expertise. There can be no expertise in judging something's originality if it is a fraud from inception. Sir, in jailhouse terms, this is what is known as the "Long con". Run away. Tom A.

02-11-2006, 12:14 AM	#9
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Tom, I completely understand your stance here but I, for one, would surely like to examine this piece in the presence of a Mike Krause, Doug Smith or Brad Simpson....it MAY be the real thing!

02-11-2006, 01:04 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Tom, Can you hint at where this article will appear and when...so folks can keep an eye out for its plublication...???

02-11-2006, 02:09 PM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Pete, I am not aware of the publication venue; when I know more and am at liberty to disclose, I will. Tom A

02-11-2006, 06:35 PM	#12
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I, for one, will eagerly await your notification, Tom.

02-12-2006, 12:32 AM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Everyone here is showing great wisdom and I am eagerly looking forward to TomA's mentioned article. Once I had a chance to buy a restored Russian from a well known collector /dealer and I passed. Too much counterfeiting going on around here for me to try for something that I know so little about. I still would like very much to see more detailed pictures of the above gun before I say anything. Big Norm

02-13-2006, 06:01 PM	#14
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Well.... Browsing a few local friends for a 1911 frame and this is what I found. The first, (more worn) gun is the one on gunbroker. The second, (not for sale currently), has been fired, maybe twice . It looks completely untouched apart form a couple of tiny marks on the frame rail and the mark on the back of the frame from the toggle. Straw is 98% ? Both bores truly excellent. The gun for sale has a little overall 'age' to it. Both are so far beyond my ability to evaluate it's unreal. But ifthey turn out to be genuine, at least I got to play with both !! The carbine he has for sale made me drool, but same comments apply. He seems to be a genuine guy I've dealt with before, certainly a pleasant chap. He would very much like to authenticate or disprove the originality of these pieces as he's a middle man in the deal. Got to lie down for a minute; more money than my cars worth.... Stu

02-13-2006, 09:00 PM	#15
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Are authentic Russian crossed-rifle chamber stamps roll-died and then finished (as American Eagle stamps & etc.), or are they stamped after bluing? --Dwight

02-14-2006, 07:20 PM	#17
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	The seller would like to know what markings should be on the extractor. The best description I can give is as follows; 3, A, P, R (the r is reversed), something like an R on it's back, then a couple that defy description. Any clues ? Stu