On My Soapbox (Stainless Lugers, Debates & a General note - LONG!)

[John D.]

Bob, I read your post below and wanted to post â??out of the noiseâ?� of the thread. So here goes..


Yes â?? I help operate this website. I host the systems. I provide the servers. I provide the software. I provide the connection to the Internet. I provide the hard-disks, the mega-bytes, the â??stuffâ?� that makes it all â??workâ?�. In fact â?? all that â??stuffâ?� sits 100 feet from my home and 5 feet from where I am writing this note.


At the same time - what I do not provide is the â??contentâ?�. Nor the combined knowledge about Lugers. Nor do I provide the â??communityâ?�. Nor, do I provide the â??flamesâ?�. Nor am I the moderator of this Forum. This â??contentâ?� are things that you, and hundreds of other visitors bring to this site each and every time you post. And that same â??contentâ?� is the â??fibreâ?� of this same Forum. That is to your credit, And to H�¥kanâ??s, and to Dokâ??s who moderates it all. And to each and every person who chooses to post here - they are the ones who have built this same communityâ?¦ Certainly not to my credit as one who simply provides the technology basisâ?¦.


But â?? you asked for my $0.02 on what is "proper" or "improper" for this Forum, so here it isâ?¦.


Iâ??ll ask you to understand that this Forum is an International Community. H�¥kan has expressed his opinion, and you your opinion. For that, while you may choose to â??disagreeâ?� â?? Iâ??ll ask you to please remember that H�¥kan is at a disadvantage â?? 10 to 1 says that English is his second language. For that â?? the saying that â??much is lost in the translationâ?� in fact, may be true. If this Board were in Swedish, or German â?? or any other language â?? you would be saddled with that same difficulty. I am more then confident that if you were forced to post in your second language â?? terms and word usage would appear much harsher then intended. I know that would be the case for me posting in an international community, as I have tried over the past years in several non-native English Websites. So, I respect H�¥kan for even making the effort to post...


To H�¥kan and his opinions â?? yes, they are strong. They are built on his experiences and knowledge, which does not mirror many of ours. I respect many of his views and at the same time â?? choose to disagree with others views he has expressed (about the trade press, Colt Gold Cups (Pre- 70), Aimco-Stoger Lugers, etc.)) â?? but those are my opinions and biases. At the same time, I still respect his right to express his opinions within this Forum â?? and that, in fact â?? is the essence of this same community. It is truly a diverse community â?? and frankly, I learn a little more about â??my opinionsâ?� when I have reason to â??defend themâ?�. But thatâ??s just meâ?¦


To these points â?? both you and H�¥kan have done an outstanding job of supporting your own points of view. I, and my guess is â??weâ?� â?? understand both sides of the argument. And for that â?? no one is â??more correctâ?� then the other. Somehow, we all co-exist given our diverse opinions due to the fact that we are all here for a common love. One for a simple handgun called â??The Lugerâ?�. It is that same passion that causes us to endear this handgun as it does to impassion us to argue about what is â??correctâ?� or â??not-properâ?�. It is that same emotion that causes us to â??Flameâ?� another based on the strength of our own opinions.


At the same time â?? I see no problem with sharing these diverse views. What I personally have â??no toleranceâ?� for is basically so much simpler. It is basic. It is a case where a collector or enthusiast is ridiculed for asking a question or presenting a thesis. Being of direct German descent - I am ashamed that a German National would be so arrogant to belittle another enthusiast for asking a question â?? and â??make upâ?� an answer based purely on the nationality of the person who posed the original question.


In my opinion - they have shamed themselves, their credibility, their family name and their heritage. They have made me ashamed to be of German descent. More deplorable would be another who would knowingly pass on mis-information, and take that same opportunity to make fun at someoneâ??s elses expense based on that same ridicule. To that point â?? that one individual who has recently chose to leave this Forum, and in my opinion, has been to the betterment of this entire group and the collectorsâ?? community in general.


Summarily and in addition, I have also discounted and literally thrown away a book written by a Luger collector about â??The Navy Lugersâ?� who is of German descent and who is the original perpetrator of that same charade. I am ashamed of both him and how he trivialized our shared heritage, nationality and cross-culture enthusiasm called â??the Lugerâ?�. Someday, perhaps he will realize both the arrogance and the dark strike he has caused within that same community he professes to participate within. As for me â?? I will discount any knowledge he professes to have attained and tendered â?? as much of it may have been rendered in the same arrogant light as his response to a simple question. Such is my opinion â?? and as such, so be it.


By comparison, H�¥kan has not trivialized his position by belittling a nationality â?? ergo, the basis for respecting the debate.


So, to summarize my sentiments, Bob. You and H�¥kan do and can co-exist here, share vast opinions â?? and yet share a common bond â?? your passion over this handgun. And there is room here for both views â?? expressed with passion and emotion â?? within these same posts and messages. The question is â?? is there room for both perspectives, yours and H�¥kan - to co-exist simultaneously in this same Forum?


My guess is a resounding â??YESâ?�. My guess is also that 99% of the â??rest of the folksâ?� feel the same way.


These are just my guess, though â?? as we are all here for that shared love â?? whether they are stainless, blued, worn, pitted or pristineâ?¦ And when Iâ??m shooting a Luger â?? I love it for what is â??isâ?� â?? not where it came from.


Off my soapbox.

[ViggoG]

[renaissance]

Well Spoken!

and

Very thoughtful analysis.

I for one, can confirm and enthusiastically support your observation of the "second language" concideration.


On a side subject, your comment re:


"a book written by a Luger collector about â??The Navy Lugers?who is of German descent and who is the original perpetrator of that same charade."


I am not familiar with the controversy ("charade").

Would you please fill me in?

(Offline if you prefer)


renman@concentric.net

hakans terms such a "cheap pieces of american crap" and" no wonder bob regers is having problems" can hardly be accredited to a misunderstanding due to language. Hakans opinions are valid anything short of slander.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Dear Bob


First: Let me explain those sentences you reffered to.

"Cheap piece of american Crap" is in no way any missunderstadning, and by the way it's true to cause that sentence described in it's best way the "guns" discussed.

"Cheap piece of american crap", describes the actual gun discussed, it does not describe you and you should not take that sentence personal.


I can't at all understand why people get mad and angry just because I give an honest opinion about a gun.

My opinions have alwasy been about the guns and not the people here, therefor noone should take it personal.


Secondly the "no wonder bob regers had problems" is something you completely have missunderstood cause I have never written that.

What I wrote was just a note about that both the most SSluger suporting members here(steve and bob) had problems with their guns and that was not a lye that either.

I did by the way sugest a number of things that could have gone wrong with your gun, that wasen't done to be mean.

I tried to help you.


Third. I would like to remind you that you where the one throwing the first stone by calling me a butcher.


Forth.

I don't wish to continue any kinds of personal arguments and stonetrowing, I am here to discuss guns and I intend to continue that.

If you like to continue your stonethrowing you have to conitnue it all by yourself.


and last:

Sometimes expressions and sentences gets all wrong when translated, espsially since different languages have differnet ways to express different opinions.

So when translating its not just to translates words, it requires totally differnet thinking.

Therefor I appologies for when my writings gets all wrong and things gets wrong.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan





http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[John Sabato]

You both have strong opinions...and you are both entitled to make them...and both of you make valid points.


Please take some time and re-read the Forum Decorum page under general information, and try to keep things on track...Additional chest beating is not furthering our knowledge of Lugers and is certainly not enhancing the environment of the forum...


Your cooperation is greatly appreciated.


BTW, I am not the Lugerforum post policeman, ... just a long term and concerned member (over 3 years) and Dok is out of town at the moment... Let's not make him sorry he took some time off...


Both of you have valuable insights about owning, learning about, and collecting Lugers to share on this forum... I would hate to have things degrade to the point where Dok would consider barring either of you from posting to the forum.


Stick around and try to have some fun! Life is too short to bicker!


thanks much,


John Sabato

[Johnny Peppers]

Maybe all are not aware of the old American custom of not kicking another man's dog, or telling him that his wife is ugly. "piece of american (small A) crap" goes a long way in accomplishing both of these.

Everyone knows everyone's opinion of the stainless Luger, and as John said it is time to give it a rest.

[Steve]

Hakan and I disagree on this topic but I MUST give him credit for being an excellent machinist, target shooter, and metalurgist. I respect his opinions and he personally assured me that I am welcome here on the forum. We will probably have our differences in the future but I hope we all can get along in the format of this forum. The Luger is a great gun and is fun to shoot in all its configurations!

[Dok]

I have asked HÃ?Â¥kan to write an article (to be posted on this site) that spells out his opinions about SS Lugers, backed up with all the facts he can muster. I will edit this document for grammatical correctness, and post it to the General Info section.


After that event I am trusting that HÃ?Â¥kan will refer posters on this topic to read his in-depth article instead of "evanglizing" on his viewpoint whenever the topic comes up. Hopefully this will cut down on the "noise" over this topic.


Just so that everyone also understands, I am "pro" stainless steel Lugers as a reproduction of one of the finest weapons ever made, and feel that this forum should be a safe environment in which to discuss the operation, joys and woes of this particular handgun. I do not appreciate that people feel this is a topic that should be avoided, and if the steps I have taken to reduce the "bad blood" over this issue are not effective, then stronger measures will be called for, but WILL NOT include the banning of this topic.


Thank you to all who try to keep this topic within bounds, it is after all YOUR Forum, and I am adamant that SS Lugers WILL be discussed sanely and in a dignified manner on this Forum.


Dok (Webmaster)

[BILL]

Dok, if that is the only way to keep the peace, go for it. I personally would rather explore some kind of 'kill file' for anyone who constantly rubs people the wrong way. (Hint: It ain't about Stainless Steel or Lugers). Sorry if that offends anyone's sensitivities.

[Kyrie]

I think thatâ??s a good idea.


Folks who are passionate about firearms (and Luger fans can be some of the most passionate [smile]) can sometimes have their good manners overwhelmed by their strong feelings. When that happens itâ??s the job of the moderator to take whatever steps he has to in order to restore civility and gentlemanly behavior, and to remind us we are all here for the same reason - to share knowledge *and* fellowship.


I think Dok has found a good solution to strong differences of opinion, and I respectfully suggest we do something similar whenever similar issues arise. Let those who feel strongly write up their views, submit them to Dok for review and editing as needed, and then post those views in a section all their own. We may eventually want a section on the Forum entitled something like â??Controversies.â?�


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Marvin]

Dok,


Great idea to have Hakan do this! I don't like any SS gun, but that is my opinion. This article will be a great addition to the Forum.


marvin

[John Sabato]

to write an article with some real good photos to submit for publication on this site to estoll the virtues and asthetics of the SS Luger breed...


(I own two SS guns, a S&W Model 66 .357 Combat Magnum, and a TDE .44AMP Automag that I have owned for over 20 years... they have their place in the shooting community, especially in salt water locales, but my favorite steel is BLUE).


regards,


John

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

I would just like a clearyfi a few things.

I have only said bad things about SS semiautomatic pistols , never revolvers.

I am actually right now in court against the Swedish police because they don't want to give me a permit on a S&W 66.

And if you look at my homepage you will find customreworked SS revolvers but not pistols.

I don't wish to start up the SS debate again, but it looked from John Sabato's input like I have speaked bad about everything in Stainless.


Best Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

how come they refuse you a permit on a revolver when you own so many automatic pistols?

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Acording to Swedish gunlaw you must have a "need" for a gun to get the permit.

As I already have two revolvers for competition the police says I don't need any more revolvers.

I say I do, so I have appealed it to the court.


But it's feel kinda funny, I got 57 guns and they are making problems on a revolverspermit.

This is by the way the 4th time I take them to court.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

Its disgusting the way govts almost make up stupid rules to limit our posession of so called dangerous firearms.If you had 5 porsches I seriously doubt the law enforcement would say you dont need another porsche! Here in my province of new york statethe sky is the limit but....here we have to 1 buy trigger locks with any handgun bought since jan 2001 2 have guns fired by cops to keep ballistics on record all in one year!!!! whats next i fear? the the stupid thing is what about my other 3 guns that they will never have records on? or will I be just dumb enough to commit murder with my 357 on file? They here and apparently in sweden assume the worst about gunowners because you can have a whole fleet of porsches and people will simply envy you and not judge. If I tell people I have 4 (imagine 57!!) some people go OH GOD? why do you need those and they step back...

[Big Norm]

This is another example about how misunderstandings and arguements began. We have to began to understand the rediculous rules that gunowners have to endure and the hands of 'expert' government rules. HÃ?Â¥kan lives in a different country and the rules there are different than in ours. Once he explained them to us, the picture changed and we understood. With four court cases going, I can understand HÃ?Â¥kans strong words a LOT better. I would use strong words too. We also have to remember that here in America we also have different government rules in cities, counties and states. I would never like to live in Chicago. A little understanding on the differences of locations will keep this forum the valuable resource that it has become.


I have always had a lot of respect for HÃ?Â¥kans marvelous talents and my respect for Dok is growing by leaps and bounds. I am not an pro-SS guy but I am not an anti either. I have plenty on luger 'mistakes' that I can take to the range. So I don't worry about SS lugers. If I don't like a certain thread on this forum, I can just bypass it. But I applaud Dok's handling of this situation. He is well worth the big bucks that we are paying him.

My friend... you are trying to dissolve an argument that does not exist. first off i was speaking in general terms second if you read closely i was sympathizing with Hakans dilemma meaning i felt for him and his abridged freedom. You are right this is how misunderstandings turn into arguments-hence your misunderstanding. Think about it.