Vickers Dutch Luger Rig acquired at Houston Gun Show

Tony S. · 01-28-2006, 08:11 PM

I just purchased this completely matching Dutch Luger Rig last weekend at the Houston Gun Collectors Show. It came from a WWII vet that had the gun the entire time. When I got the gun, it was full of cosmoline (spell?) and it even had sand inside the gun and between the parts. After a good cleaning with biodegradable oil, the gun looked fantastic. The holster is in pretty good shape and it comes with the oiler/cleaning rod. How would you price this rig? I included pics for your review.
Thanks, Tony
"SEMPER PARATUS"

Tony S. · 01-28-2006, 08:21 PM

Tony S. · 01-28-2006, 08:23 PM

Forgot right side!

wlyon · 01-28-2006, 08:48 PM

Tony This is the best Vickers I have ever seen. Generally they are in pretty bad shape from long useage in a terrible climate. I am assuming this is all matching and in original condition . At least the bluing looks original and the grips are the correct course type made in the Indies. As to value I shouldn't even guess but I would say in excess of $3000. I am sure others will have differing opinions. Very very nice Vickers. A keeper. Bill

Ron Wood · 01-28-2006, 08:53 PM

Nice find Tony! Vickers are tough Lugers to find in decent condition and yours appears to be a well preserved arsenal rework (1923). The holster is also difficult to find and is a great acquisition. The unit is the Communications Company, 3rd Battalion Engineers.

Can you provide photos of the inside of the grips and of the cleaning rod?

drbuster · 01-28-2006, 09:11 PM

Tony, I echo Bill's and Ron's accolades. Fantastic Vickers! Did the vet who brought it back get it from the South Pacific theater? I would presume so. Would like to see the bottom of the magazine to ascertain if it is the Dutch type with the tab to remove the mag bottom. Also, I think Bill is conservative with his estimate. This high end Vickers is worth $3.5-$4K, in my opinion. One recently sold on Simpson's site in this range. The holster alone is worth $1K. I hope you got this great rig for a good price.

wlyon · 01-28-2006, 09:25 PM

My estimate of in excess of $3000 was without the holster. It wasn"t on the thread when I responded. And I agree I am low. Can"t get used to the luger prices in the last few years. Great for selling tough on buying. Now with the holster the rig is super fantastic!

lugercollector · 01-28-2006, 09:30 PM

Congatulations Tony!!!...Really nice Historic Luger!!!

Tony S. · 01-28-2006, 09:57 PM

The magazine it had does not have the tab, it is a commercial wood bottom magazine with Germany written on the bottom. The gun is completely matching in and out. The grips are properly numbered with a mark (a couple of letters inside an oval). I would have to check them again to make sure. Thanks for the accolades and quick responses.
Tony S.

Pete Ebbink · 01-28-2006, 11:14 PM

Hi Tony,

Really nice score...that holster alone would bring $ 1200 or more. Also the Dutch cleaning rod is very rare and desirable...

The letters inside the oval on your grips are probably "GS"...

Congratulations !

Dwight Gruber · 01-29-2006, 04:36 AM

Tony,

I can only repeat others' comments here that a nicer Vickers will not be found. I will suggest that this is likely to be the gun's original finish. Bas Martens (correspondence) has mentioned his belief that the barrel date is not necessarily a rebarrel date (as in The Dutch Luger) or a rework date, but was stamped the year the Luger entered service. I believe I detect halo around the barrel date, indicating stamping after blue; there also appears to be halo around the British barrel proofs.

I think you will find it well worth your while to track down a Dutch magazine for this ensemble. As far as value is concerned, I have little argument with the highest numbers suggested upscreen, except that they may be a bit too low.

I must admit that I sat in open-mouthed astonishment as I clicked up each of your pictures in turn. I must thank you for the opportunity to see these pictures, and congratulate you again on recognizing a truly remarkable Luger and having the ability to obtain it.

--Dwight

Tony S. · 01-29-2006, 08:30 AM

I appreciate everyones comments. I finally got a good score. You always read about it and wonder when is it going to be my turn. Anyway, If someone has a lead on a Vickers/Dutch magazine, please let me know. Which brings me to, Where the mags numbered to the gun?
Thanks, Tony

Edward Tinker · 01-29-2006, 10:45 AM

tony congrats, every now and then one of us scores well. Good hunting!

ed

drbuster · 01-29-2006, 10:59 AM

Tony, the Germany marked magazine is probably a commercial replacement. Any wood bottomed magazine without markings would be correct, according to Martens and de Vries (page 215 and following). No serial number appeared on the bottom customarily. It would be nice to obtain the one with the wood bottom removal tab but they have gone for $300 and up. The last one I saw for sale was on Randy Bessler's site.

Vlim · 01-29-2006, 11:50 AM

Hi,

A wonderful example of a Dutch luger. The holster is excellent. I wouldn't worry about the magazine. The ones with the detachable bottom piece were somewhat of a design mistake and soon abondoned (or modified with a double pin). As magazines were not numbered to the pistols, any period correct magazine will do and I have seen several variations, including blued steel w. wood bottom and plain nickle w. wood bottom.

The pistol was issued to the 3rd Engineers batallion of the communications company. 'Verbindingscompagnie 3e bataljon genietroepen'. Coming from a US veteran, I expect that some Japanese soldier laid his hands on this pistol first.

I sincerely doubt that the barrel date signifies a service date, as I have seen a number of Dutch lugers without the date, including my own which was delivered in 1928, barrel has crown/N proof and serial number, and no barrel date. The pistol was probably just fixed or overhauled in 1923.

Pete Ebbink · 01-29-2006, 12:03 PM

Tony,

Do not be in shock when you see the prices for authentic Dutch magazines. I have seen them for sale in the $ 450-700 price range during the past 1.5 years.

Also...be aware of good "fakes" out there...look for old wood and age/rust on the little odd spring at the bottom of the wooden bottom. Here is a photo my my magazine so you know what one looks like :

Imperial Arms · 01-29-2006, 08:08 PM

Congratulations Tony!

I am speechless of your acquisition. The entire rig is in fantastic condition for a Vickers model and you did very well. It has all the 'comfort zones' I like to see - even the cleaning rod is correct.

Considering the excellent comments and advise of Vlimmeren, search for a magazine with the double pin which would be inline with this particular pistol. The magazines with the detachable bottom piece were typically issued with the M1906 pistols and were short-lived.

In regards to its value, I reckon that only the pistol is worth between $3,500-$4,000 in its current condition.

Well done,
Albert

John Sabato · 01-30-2006, 11:02 AM

And all I can is is WOW!!!!!! Congrats! Tony....

Jamka · 01-30-2006, 03:40 PM

Tony,
Indeed a superb Vickers... It must have been kept in a drawer most of its live, and I probably know why. During my military service (1962-63) I was enlisted in the Dutch Signal Corps (Verbindingsdienst). We were supposed to take care of the connections between the staff and the field. Day and night sitting in a big cabin, mounted on a truck, with a noisy generator outside. I belonged to the last shift to use morse. The big transmitter was a BCC625 - we used it also to heat our coffee on.

Practising shooting? No sir, no time. Just the obligatory 20 rounds a month. So the signal corps in the Indies, 25 years earlier, might have 'enjoyed' the same monotone deskwork. Your Vickers is the proof of that.

The holster is very rare indeed. Stamps show that is was made in 1940 by the 'Centrale Winkel' (central workshop) in Batavia, the 'z' stamp means it was newly made then, not a repair job. The value is more than 1K - with the cleaning rod / oiler it would go here at 1.5K...
One of the best Dutch rigs I ever saw.

Tony S. · 01-31-2006, 07:40 PM

Again, thanks for the kind words. Right now I am in Mobile doing simulator training, thus not able to answer my e-mails. I will respond to your personal e-mails when I get home. As far as the mag, I will keep my eyes open for one. This nice rig deserves the original magazine.
Thanks, Tony
"SEMPER PARATUS"

01-28-2006, 08:11 PM	#1
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Vickers Dutch Luger Rig acquired at Houston Gun Show I just purchased this completely matching Dutch Luger Rig last weekend at the Houston Gun Collectors Show. It came from a WWII vet that had the gun the entire time. When I got the gun, it was full of cosmoline (spell?) and it even had sand inside the gun and between the parts. After a good cleaning with biodegradable oil, the gun looked fantastic. The holster is in pretty good shape and it comes with the oiler/cleaning rod. How would you price this rig? I included pics for your review. Thanks, Tony "SEMPER PARATUS" Attached Thumbnails

01-28-2006, 08:21 PM	#2
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More pics! http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...arrel_date.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...arrel_mark.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...frame_mark.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ame_mark_1.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ame_number.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/vickers_toggle.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ment_plate.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._rust_mark.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...own_number.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...rs_holster.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...lster_mark.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._holster_1.jpg Thanks, Tony S. Attached Thumbnails

01-28-2006, 08:23 PM	#3
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Forgot right side! Attached Thumbnails

01-28-2006, 08:48 PM	#4
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	Tony This is the best Vickers I have ever seen. Generally they are in pretty bad shape from long useage in a terrible climate. I am assuming this is all matching and in original condition . At least the bluing looks original and the grips are the correct course type made in the Indies. As to value I shouldn't even guess but I would say in excess of $3000. I am sure others will have differing opinions. Very very nice Vickers. A keeper. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

01-28-2006, 08:53 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Nice find Tony! Vickers are tough Lugers to find in decent condition and yours appears to be a well preserved arsenal rework (1923). The holster is also difficult to find and is a great acquisition. The unit is the Communications Company, 3rd Battalion Engineers. Can you provide photos of the inside of the grips and of the cleaning rod? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-28-2006, 09:11 PM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Tony, I echo Bill's and Ron's accolades. Fantastic Vickers! Did the vet who brought it back get it from the South Pacific theater? I would presume so. Would like to see the bottom of the magazine to ascertain if it is the Dutch type with the tab to remove the mag bottom. Also, I think Bill is conservative with his estimate. This high end Vickers is worth $3.5-$4K, in my opinion. One recently sold on Simpson's site in this range. The holster alone is worth $1K. I hope you got this great rig for a good price.

01-28-2006, 09:25 PM	#7
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	My estimate of in excess of $3000 was without the holster. It wasn"t on the thread when I responded. And I agree I am low. Can"t get used to the luger prices in the last few years. Great for selling tough on buying. Now with the holster the rig is super fantastic! __________________ Bill Lyon

01-28-2006, 09:30 PM	#8
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	Congatulations Tony!!!...Really nice Historic Luger!!!

01-28-2006, 09:57 PM	#9
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The magazine it had does not have the tab, it is a commercial wood bottom magazine with Germany written on the bottom. The gun is completely matching in and out. The grips are properly numbered with a mark (a couple of letters inside an oval). I would have to check them again to make sure. Thanks for the accolades and quick responses. Tony S. Attached Thumbnails

01-28-2006, 11:14 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Tony, Really nice score...that holster alone would bring $ 1200 or more. Also the Dutch cleaning rod is very rare and desirable... The letters inside the oval on your grips are probably "GS"... Congratulations !

01-29-2006, 04:36 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Tony, I can only repeat others' comments here that a nicer Vickers will not be found. I will suggest that this is likely to be the gun's original finish. Bas Martens (correspondence) has mentioned his belief that the barrel date is not necessarily a rebarrel date (as in The Dutch Luger) or a rework date, but was stamped the year the Luger entered service. I believe I detect halo around the barrel date, indicating stamping after blue; there also appears to be halo around the British barrel proofs. I think you will find it well worth your while to track down a Dutch magazine for this ensemble. As far as value is concerned, I have little argument with the highest numbers suggested upscreen, except that they may be a bit too low. I must admit that I sat in open-mouthed astonishment as I clicked up each of your pictures in turn. I must thank you for the opportunity to see these pictures, and congratulate you again on recognizing a truly remarkable Luger and having the ability to obtain it. --Dwight

01-29-2006, 08:30 AM	#12
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I appreciate everyones comments. I finally got a good score. You always read about it and wonder when is it going to be my turn. Anyway, If someone has a lead on a Vickers/Dutch magazine, please let me know. Which brings me to, Where the mags numbered to the gun? Thanks, Tony

01-29-2006, 10:45 AM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	tony congrats, every now and then one of us scores well. Good hunting! ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-29-2006, 10:59 AM	#14
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Tony, the Germany marked magazine is probably a commercial replacement. Any wood bottomed magazine without markings would be correct, according to Martens and de Vries (page 215 and following). No serial number appeared on the bottom customarily. It would be nice to obtain the one with the wood bottom removal tab but they have gone for $300 and up. The last one I saw for sale was on Randy Bessler's site.

01-29-2006, 11:50 AM	#15
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, A wonderful example of a Dutch luger. The holster is excellent. I wouldn't worry about the magazine. The ones with the detachable bottom piece were somewhat of a design mistake and soon abondoned (or modified with a double pin). As magazines were not numbered to the pistols, any period correct magazine will do and I have seen several variations, including blued steel w. wood bottom and plain nickle w. wood bottom. The pistol was issued to the 3rd Engineers batallion of the communications company. 'Verbindingscompagnie 3e bataljon genietroepen'. Coming from a US veteran, I expect that some Japanese soldier laid his hands on this pistol first. I sincerely doubt that the barrel date signifies a service date, as I have seen a number of Dutch lugers without the date, including my own which was delivered in 1928, barrel has crown/N proof and serial number, and no barrel date. The pistol was probably just fixed or overhauled in 1923.

01-29-2006, 12:03 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Tony, Do not be in shock when you see the prices for authentic Dutch magazines. I have seen them for sale in the $ 450-700 price range during the past 1.5 years. Also...be aware of good "fakes" out there...look for old wood and age/rust on the little odd spring at the bottom of the wooden bottom. Here is a photo my my magazine so you know what one looks like :

01-29-2006, 08:08 PM	#17
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Congratulations Tony! I am speechless of your acquisition. The entire rig is in fantastic condition for a Vickers model and you did very well. It has all the 'comfort zones' I like to see - even the cleaning rod is correct. Considering the excellent comments and advise of Vlimmeren, search for a magazine with the double pin which would be inline with this particular pistol. The magazines with the detachable bottom piece were typically issued with the M1906 pistols and were short-lived. In regards to its value, I reckon that only the pistol is worth between $3,500-$4,000 in its current condition. Well done, Albert

01-30-2006, 11:02 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	And all I can is is WOW!!!!!! Congrats! Tony.... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-30-2006, 03:40 PM	#19
Jamka RIP Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Antwerp Belgium Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tony, Indeed a superb Vickers... It must have been kept in a drawer most of its live, and I probably know why. During my military service (1962-63) I was enlisted in the Dutch Signal Corps (Verbindingsdienst). We were supposed to take care of the connections between the staff and the field. Day and night sitting in a big cabin, mounted on a truck, with a noisy generator outside. I belonged to the last shift to use morse. The big transmitter was a BCC625 - we used it also to heat our coffee on. Practising shooting? No sir, no time. Just the obligatory 20 rounds a month. So the signal corps in the Indies, 25 years earlier, might have 'enjoyed' the same monotone deskwork. Your Vickers is the proof of that. The holster is very rare indeed. Stamps show that is was made in 1940 by the 'Centrale Winkel' (central workshop) in Batavia, the 'z' stamp means it was newly made then, not a repair job. The value is more than 1K - with the cleaning rod / oiler it would go here at 1.5K... One of the best Dutch rigs I ever saw. __________________ Joop

01-31-2006, 07:40 PM	#20
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Again, thanks for the kind words. Right now I am in Mobile doing simulator training, thus not able to answer my e-mails. I will respond to your personal e-mails when I get home. As far as the mag, I will keep my eyes open for one. This nice rig deserves the original magazine. Thanks, Tony "SEMPER PARATUS"