my profile |
register |
faq |
search upload photo | donate | calendar |
01-16-2006, 04:00 PM | #1 |
User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1,137
Thanks: 3
Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts
|
Luger build question...
I'm looking at a frame for sale that still has the huge, CIA billboard-like import stamp on the side of it. What I'm wondering is can that be removed for a new build or is that frame stuck with that stamp no matter what?
Thanks for any help you can offer. I dont' want to drop $150 on a frame that's gunna look like junk no matter what's done to it.
__________________
Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve |
01-16-2006, 06:12 PM | #2 |
User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 539
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
|
I could be wrong-and my wife says I almost always am. But other than the serial number I think you can remove any marks you wish. That stamp was for importation only.
__________________
Dave |
01-17-2006, 12:18 PM | #3 |
RIP
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southeast Texas Swamp
Posts: 2,460
Thanks: 2
Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts
|
Pipeman, tell your wife that for once you are correct!!!
__________________
TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20! |
01-17-2006, 01:27 PM | #4 |
User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1,137
Thanks: 3
Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts
|
Thanks guys. I think I'm going to pass on the one with the import mark and pick one up from a forum member who's offered one at a good price. It isn't all marked up and looks very good.
__________________
Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve |
01-17-2006, 01:30 PM | #5 |
RIP
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ca.
Posts: 2,141
Thanks: 8
Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts
|
Please correct, my local ATF agent tell me it is against the law to remove import stamps, and there was a thread here last year to that affect.
|
01-17-2006, 01:50 PM | #6 |
User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1,137
Thanks: 3
Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts
|
Thanks Howard. I thought I had read that somewhere, maybe it was here. It's been a while though...
Thanks again...
__________________
Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve |
01-17-2006, 07:36 PM | #7 |
RIP
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southeast Texas Swamp
Posts: 2,460
Thanks: 2
Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts
|
Ask 10 different ATF agents the same question and you will receive 10 different answers!
I think that all the requirements as to marking the gun are imposed upon the importer. Once the consumer purchases the gun, they are free to obliterate any markings on the gun EXCEPT for the serial number. There is no law or regulation that I am aware of that forbids removal of any markings other than the serial number. The import markings are basically there to track the firearm from the importer to the FFL holder. Once it is out of the control of the FFL holder, the buyer can remove the markings. If it were illegal to remove the markings, then it is illegal to change out the bbl of a gun that has the importers mark on the bbl, as this would constitute "removing the importers mark"!!!! If a law enforcement agency is trying to track a gun they will be using the serial number, not who the importer was. Besides, if it is a Luger, who's going to know if an importers stamp was originally there or not?
__________________
TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20! |
01-17-2006, 07:59 PM | #8 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,016
Thanks: 94
Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts
|
Below is what the BATF refers to in regards to import markings. This is from US Customs.
SteveM �§ 134.4 Penalties for removal, defacement, or alteration of marking. Any intentional removal, defacement, destruction, or alteration of a marking of the country of origin required by section 304, Tariff Act of 1930, as amended (19 U.S.C. 1304), and this part in order to conceal this information may result in criminal penalties of up to $5,000 and/or imprisonment for 1 year, as provided in 19 U.S.C. 1304(h). [T.D. 72â??262, 37 FR 20318, Sept. 29, 1972, as amended by T.D. 90â??51, 55 FR 28191, July 10, 1990] |
01-17-2006, 08:07 PM | #9 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 452
Thanks: 4
Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts
|
Hi Steve. Could you explain how the reference to the removal of a 'country of origin' mark relates to an importers mark.
These seem to be along the line of 'XYZ inc Falling Block IL'. Or am I just completely out of date as to the syntax of the importer marking ? |
01-17-2006, 08:56 PM | #10 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,016
Thanks: 94
Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts
|
Below is what is required of importers. It looks like to me that the country of origin is part of the importers mark. All of this came from the BATF website.
However, I am a pretty simple guy and maybe I don't comprehend everything that I read. Wouldn't be the first time. (a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows: (i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and (ii) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (A) The model, if such designation has been made; (B) The caliber or gauge; (C) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer; (D) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business; and (E) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134. |
01-17-2006, 11:51 PM | #11 |
User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 539
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
|
Steve. I know enough to know, I don't know enough. But the regulations you quote are for the importer or manufacturer,not a private person. Or am I reading it wrong?
__________________
Dave |
01-18-2006, 12:00 AM | #12 | |
Super Moderator
Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 15,929
Thanks: 2,029
Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts
|
Quote:
** that the marking is there for all to see where it came from and also told **that ONLY an importer or manufacturer has to 'worry" about the markings and also told **that the markings ONLY have to stay on until sold by the importer to a licensed dealer and once the dealer sells the item, you can do as you want with it... I don't know, if you are a dealer, I don't think I'd have markings removed, but as a collector, well, I don't know Ed |
|
01-18-2006, 06:57 AM | #13 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,016
Thanks: 94
Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts
|
Pipeman,
I'm like you, I know enough to know that I don't know enough. I'll do some more checking with some folks and get their ake on it. |
01-18-2006, 09:15 AM | #14 |
User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1,137
Thanks: 3
Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts
|
I know enough to know that I know enough to land my sorry butt in jail if I even look across the line, nevermind actually crossing it.
For my part, I'll just leave import marks alone and look for a frame that's clean. No worries that way. Or maybe just sacrifice one of my non-collectable Lugers to the "Baby Luger Project". I wouldn't have thought the question would have been so cloudy. But it does involve the goverment so I should have known better...
__________________
Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve |
01-18-2006, 12:35 PM | #15 |
Lifer
Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sonoma County CA
Posts: 243
Thanks: 5
Thanked 33 Times in 16 Posts
|
It is easier on P38s. They billboard the slide. This is not consider the main part to the BATF.
Jerry |
01-18-2006, 01:26 PM | #16 |
RIP
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ca.
Posts: 2,141
Thanks: 8
Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts
|
Very wise Steve...all have been warned.
|
01-18-2006, 03:34 PM | #17 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow
Posts: 1,457
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
|
__________________
Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull |
01-18-2006, 07:27 PM | #18 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 452
Thanks: 4
Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts
|
Steve has a fair point quoting the regs, which seem quite complex enough !
I have 3 older imports that just have the importers name on them. I suspect the regs may have changed recently, (even CIA used to be a little less verbose and a lot more discreet !). It may be that different rules will be applied dependant on when a gun was imported ? |
01-19-2006, 10:48 AM | #19 |
User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 539
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
|
Herb. Again ,that reg is talking about a serial number not a name.
__________________
Dave |
01-19-2006, 11:05 AM | #20 |
RIP
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ca.
Posts: 2,141
Thanks: 8
Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts
|
Called Fresno Ca. ATF office again yesterday, it is still aginest the law to remove any importers name/marks, no matter when/where/how marked....
|
|
|