Police Luger Unit Mark

[NoncomRetired]

Originally Posted by Don M

Thanks for the report. Sear and Mag safeties?

Sear safety, yes, mag safety has been removed.

[Jamka]

Don,

There is no new evidence that might explain the difference between the "a couple of thousand" mentioned by August Weiss, and the number of 15,000 (Police) Luger pistols that was calculated based upon the reported pistols having a blank toggle in the s, t, and u block (1928-1929).

There is one new theory, however. After the control committee of the Allies left Germany (early 1927), DWM started to produce pistols having a 9mm barrel for the Dutch East Indies Army, and also for the Dutch Navy. In view of the fact that the Police took over the "couple of thousand" pistols remaining from the cancelled Riff contract, it might have been seducing opportunity to add many more pistols, and fit them with a 9mm barrel. The blank toggle would help to conceal this operation. The Treaty of Versailles Regulations were still in force.
Well - this is just a theory - but it might explain also why most of the 9mm barrels seem to have been originally mounted in the DWM factory.

Next month I will be in Germany again, looking for more evidence.

[cirelaw]

God Speed!

[Don M]

Joop, the problem I have with believing that DMW/BKIW was being "sneaky" in 1928-29 with blank toggles is that 9-mm police pistols having DWM toggles such as Eric's are mixed in the same serial number ranges. It's hard for me to believe they thought they would be fooling anybody.

The logic of having blank toggles on the Riff guns makes more sense, particularly if they intended to use a separate serial numbering scheme that didn't fit in with DWM's normal scheme. As Dwight noted in his 2004 posting, Kenyon (Lugers at Random, p. 238) claimed that the Riff pistols were re-serialed and that the numbers are slightly larger in size. I have never tried to investigate this but, if true, it may be a way of identifying these pistols.

[cirelaw]

Is my little luger a freek?

[Jamka]

Eric,

No, I certainly do not think so. Don Maus and I were just jumping back into the discussion we had some six years ago about the unmarked toggles of many pistols that came out of the DWM factory during 1928-1929.
And it seems that the last word about this issue has not yet been spoken...

[cirelaw]

Thats because we find the so exciting! My life would't be as FUN with out them!

[cirelaw]

Joop I have a matching takedown to the holster L.M.28. I've never owned a match.

[cirelaw]

I'm sorry I opened up a can of Luger Worms!!

[cirelaw]

How often would you find a semi matching police holster a a matching "28 takedown key??

[alanint]

More surprises coming from the Police pistol I initially posted. The owner brought in a cut down police holster, which was captured with the gun, but heavily altered into a shoulder holster by the GI who captured it, (The GI was Thomas A Owens, 1922-2010, who wrote a book about his experiences called "An ordinary man in extraordinary times").

http://www.amazon.com/An-Ordinary-Ma...ordinary+times

The holster is marked A. Fisher, Berlin C2, 1929, has the police sunburst and police Unit mark L.33.133, (overstamped and obscured and only partially readable).

Also there is a spare magazine, aluminum bottom, marked "3" at the top, 6296, no suffix, "+" and has what looks like a starburst and K as a proof. The aluminum bottom seems to also have a strange insert, like later mags, visible only on one side.

There were also several ammunition boxes; one WW1, several WW2 and one 1943 dated .22 box.

[alanint]

More photos...

[alanint]

And again....

[cirelaw]

There seems to been an ammo gap!i have a 1900 then we jump the 1918 blue and brown. My next and last occur in the early 40s. Was there any ammo between these 2 dates? There has to be!

[alanint]

Can anyone give me a ballpark of what the three types of ammo boxes are worth?
- WW1, opened but full
- WW2, opened but full, in the conditions pictured
- WW2, .22 caliber, opened but full

Also, ballpark on the spare magazine, as pictured?

[cirelaw]

I paid $75 for mine pristene ww2. $100 for the ww1 brown and blue box each. They are going up yearly up!!

[Don M]

Doug, the markings on your holster prove it has been with your gun since they were issued in 1929-30. There are actually two successive police markings on the right rear. The first was stamped in 1932 when marking instructions were issued for the Landjägerei. It is the same as on the grip strap, L.Ar.185. In 1937, unit markings were terminated for police weapons --- manufacturers serial numbers were to be used for inventory purposes. Holsters were stamped with the serial number of the gun. In this instance, the old marking was partially overstamped with the serial number 3313. It's a shame the GI messed with the holster but it is still a very interesting and genuine rig.

[alanint]

Thanks for the additional insight, Don!!

Would $2,000 for the rig, with a copy of the capturing GI's book be reasonable? The owner wishes to sell.

[Don M]

Doug, I'm not a good one to ask. I think it is a very neat rig, particularly with the id and book of the vet who brought it back. I would certainly be willing to pay $2000 for it but I'm more interested in the history associated with it. If you are concerned about resale value, I'm afraid the "average collctor" would be turned off by the holster mods and devalue it. Short answer - I don't know. I hope others will offer opinions.

[gunnertwo]

Listmembers,

Just adding my pistol to the discussion. It's a 29DWM blank toggle and chamber, police issue almost identical to the one pictured in the first post. The serial number is "1585 u".The front strap is marked " L. Ar. 220. Is it a coincidence that I'm noticing a few guns from Arnsberg? I fairly sure my holster and take down tool match. I will pull it from storage to confirm.

For clarification, the blank chamber / toggle guns were planned for the Riff contract and were then diverted to police use? So, if I reading it correctly there would be around 2K completely unmarked pistols with the rest produced with DWM marked toggles?

Thanks for a very interesting discussion.

G2