The First Test Trials Luger reunited with the Ideal Stock

[m1903a3]

Then there's the question of how an Ordnance Shell and Flame not designed until 1936 somehow authenticates a pistol, grip or stock allegedly 30 years older??

https://goordnance.army.mil/history/shell_flame.html

[Mauser 712]

Originally Posted by m1903a3

Then there's the question of how an Ordnance Shell and Flame not designed until 1936 somehow authenticates a pistol, grip or stock allegedly 30 years older??

https://goordnance.army.mil/history/shell_flame.html

Hi Mike,

With reference to the link you provide above, the Ordnance Shell and Flame was used by European and US armies, including at the time when this M1900 AE Luger pistol was made in Germany and delivered to the USA. For example, a sentence on the web page says "Despite its sole ownership by the Ordnance Branch, multiple designs of the Shell and Flame existed", so it is not unreasonable to say that the design observed on the pistol and the iron of the Ideal stock is suspicious for that period.

Furthermore, it is not a proof mark, so its 'lazy' horizontal position on the pistol is not critical, instead to make it larger and visible to an Evaluation Board since the marking (inside the Ideal grips) 'U.S. Government' is no where on the pistol. The old-style markings on the pistol and stock/holster did not have to match perfectly, and knowledgeable collectors should be able to think and recognize the purpose of these markings instead of negatively questioning the originality of the pistol and the discovered Ideal stock when both are consistent. Most often fakers screw up in this area without knowing the significance of old natural patina and the aging of leather and wood. It is a 'science' and I don't think these marks and number were applied 30+ years later on these two items which had been separated.

However, thanks for the information that you provided which gave me some additional information/knowledge.

Cheers,
Albert

[banjomike]

Its good to see some real feed back from Mauser. I am the finder of the Ideal Luger stock. I would like to say that for one, I did not clean the numbered area on the stock. I,m a collector and and not a hack when it comes to cleaning. Please notice that the stock was not even cleaned or oiled. I left it this way to show the true age of the piece as it was found. I,m happy to have reunited the two pieces. They truly belong together. Regards Mike Hashem Old Post Office Antiques Ossipee, NH

[m1903a3]

Originally Posted by Mauser 712

Hi Mike,

With reference to the link you provide above, the Ordnance Shell and Flame was used by European and US armies, including at the time when this M1900 AE Luger pistol was made in Germany and delivered to the USA. For example, a sentence on the web page says "Despite its sole ownership by the Ordnance Branch, multiple designs of the Shell and Flame existed", so it is not unreasonable to say that the design observed on the pistol and the iron of the Ideal stock is suspicious for that period.

Hi Albert. I am well aware the "Shell and Flame" (aka "Flaming Bomb") has been used by the US Army since its inception and even longer in Europe. Indeed, the Ordnance Department is considered the oldest branch of the US Army and had a Shell and Flame as part of its first insignia. However, from the start until after WWI, none of the US designs looked remotely like the subject one. They were characterized by wilder or more "blazing" appearing flames. They also were NOT used on firearms until after 1906 and this particular style until WWII.

I have been collecting US Military firearms for over 50 years, and have spent a good many hours in the Harper's Ferry and Springfield museums as well as many days researching in the Ordnance Department records group in the National Archives.

The first use of a Flaming Bomb on a firearm was on the M1903 Rifles manufactured in late 1905. It was retroactively applied to earlier '03s when they were converted to 30.06. Both Springfield and Rock Island stamped the mark on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. But it was a completely different design than the one discussed here. Both also started using a smaller version on bayonets. The use of these older styles continued through WWI and they also appeared on Eddystone, Remington and Winchester M1917 rifles. Springfield and contractors like Remington and Smith-Corona were still using older ones on the M1903a3 and '03a4 through WWII and the end of production. These Shell and Flames not only differed from the 1936 design, they also differed from each other.

During WWII the official 1936 design started to appear on contractor manufactured items such as bayonets. The only firearm I have seen this exact style used on was a WWII vintage trench shotgun from Winchester.

The only designs used by Springfield bear no resemblance to the one in question.

Furthermore, it is not a proof mark, . . .

However, thanks for the information that you provided which gave me some additional information/knowledge.

Cheers,
Albert

I never claimed it was a proof mark, although a very small one was indeed used as a firing proof on barrels, breeches and bolts of '03s