Not extracting

[4 Scale]

Dummy rounds aka snap caps are a useful accessory to manually test the action of Lugers. The dummy rounds can be loaded and the action manually cycled, the dummies should eject and chamber.

F15E_WSO's issue seems to have both an extraction and a partial ejection (stovepipe) issue. Extraction has been covered above. On ejection the first thing i would try is different ammo, on 3 out of 4 of my .30 Luger pistols Fiocchi does not have sufficient energy to operate the action. Plus the round is a little shorter than ideal. Prvi Partisan aka PPU ammo solves both the energy and length issues and is preferred on my three .30 Luger pistols that don't like Fiocchi, however PPU is currently out of stock in the USA at least on the internet (see separate thread).

[lugerholsterrepair]

#21. The lips/buck teeth grab onto the channel at the back of the cartridge. If these are damaged in any way..they might slip off. If the spring is weak..it might not clamp down hard enough to pull the cartridge back and out. One of many possibilities.

[F15E_WSO]

So back to the range this morning. Still feeding the Fiocchis in one at a time into the magazine and then the chamber. First four rounds "chimney". I consider this progress as yesterday only 1 of 7 got that far. Fifth shot comes up AND out of the breech and the toggle is full locked in the open position with an empty mag!! Good news. Next four rounds fire, eject, toggle locked open. Yes!!

OK, now let's put two in the mag and see if we can complete the next step....

Not so much. NOT one of the second rounds in the mag made it up and in the chamber. Now ALL fired rounds ejected up and out, but the next round jammed.

Now these are Fiocchi 765 .30 Luger 93 gr. The listing says FMJ but they have in fact a lead tip. Soft lead....

Now a new Mag is in the mail, so happy to let this lay for the week and try again when the new mag arrives....it may fix the rest of this.

Thoughts on the jamming "next" round and the soft lead tip? Soft tips a recipe for disaster? New Mag may sort it out, leave it for now?

[4 Scale]

Using Fiocchi in my .30 Luger pistols often results in the nose-high jam shown in your post #23. After lots of experimenting, measuring rounds and consulting with our Luger/magazine expert G.T., I think Fiocchi is short in overall length and that's what causes that jam. Prvi Partisan ammo is slightly longer and fixed the issue.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Using Fiocchi in my .30 Luger pistols often results in the nose-high jam shown in your post #23. After lots of experimenting, measuring rounds and consulting with our Luger/magazine expert G.T., I think Fiocchi is short in overall length and that's what causes that jam. Prvi Partisan ammo is slightly longer and fixed the issue.

Maybe the new magazine will help. I think you're the second to recommend the Prvi Partisan but none to be found?! Do you have a source? Link?

[DavidJayUden]

Different ammo with FMJ design and a new mag. should get you close.
If you are here to stay contact GT and secure one of his mags. for your shooting.

https://www.gunbroker.com/Ammunition...ds=.30%20Luger

dju

[DonVoigt]

That jam is typical of "weak" Fiocchi and the problem is that the toggle does not come back all the way to pick up the next round.
Solution is "stronger" ammo like PPU, or weaker mainspring.

You can't fix it with a magazine. Too short OAL can compound the problem, but unless you get the toggle to full extension, it still won't work.

I'll bet the toggle does not lock open when you fire a single round either, a confirming symptom.

[K.Wilhelm]

For those of us who really like shooting the .30 Luger round there is really no good choice other than handloading. The bullets can be a bit of a challenge to find, but the brass is fairly easy. An add in the "want to buy" section would probably yield results. Single stage presses are readily available and cheap as are .30 Luger dies.


Anyway, the really great thing about handloading is you can easily adjust powder charges and over all lengths(oal) to fit your pistol perfectly. As Sieger and Rhuff taught me Lugers tend to like longer oal. Bill

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

That jam is typical of "weak" Fiocchi and the problem is that the toggle does not come back all the way to pick up the next round.
Solution is "stronger" ammo like PPU, or weaker mainspring.

You can't fix it with a magazine. Too short OAL can compound the problem, but unless you get the toggle to full extension, it still won't work.

I'll bet the toggle does not lock open when you fire a single round either, a confirming symptom.

DV, so yesterday when I was not trying to cycle the second round; shooting one round at a time in magazine therefore empty mag when cycling the Hold Open was working, the toggle would stay back. At that point I felt that things were heading towards normal ops and I tried to rounds. Fiocchi makes a 765A and 765B, the alpha has FULL metal copper jacket, the bravo has the lead tip.

Of course I got the lead tip

[Lugerdoc]

In your photos of the jammed round, your toggle doesn't appear to be opening fully. Could be a result of too strong a recoil spring or a defective connecting link, which is attached to the rear toggle link. TH

[rhuff]

MY 7.65P Lugers do not play well with the Fiocchi soft tip ammo, or any of the hollow point bullets that I tried in reloading the 30 Luger brass. No problems with the Fiocchi 92gr FMJ in any of my guns. Some folks here, on the forum, have Lugers that eat the JSP ammo with no problems. Many Lugers are ammo sensitive, and one has to "shop around" or handload.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by rhuff

MY 7.65P Lugers do not play well with the Fiocchi soft tip ammo, or any of the hollow point bullets that I tried in reloading the 30 Luger brass. No problems with the Fiocchi 92gr FMJ in any of my guns. Some folks here, on the forum, have Lugers that eat the JSP ammo with no problems. Many Lugers are ammo sensitive, and one has to "shop around" or handload.

So a review of my WhiteBirch Armory purchase shows I did in fact order the Fiocchi 765A (FMJ) vs the Fiocchi 765B (JSP)..... I've contacted them to see what is up with the mix-up. Not blaming them for the problem (could easily be the gun, the Fiocchi (rated weak)) but I'd like to start with a FMJ.

[mrerick]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

In your photos of the jammed round, your toggle doesn't appear to be opening fully. Could be a result of too strong a recoil spring or a defective connecting link, which is attached to the rear toggle link. TH

If you check our Luger FAQ document, you'll find the various recoil springs that were used in Lugers.

I also thought you might have a spring that was too powerful when I saw the pictures.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by mrerick

If you check our Luger FAQ document, you'll find the various recoil springs that were used in Lugers.

I also thought you might have a spring that was too powerful when I saw the pictures.

I found a "sticky" with mainspring ID and a chart, didn't see anything in the FAQs, if you could provide a link would be grateful.

Trying to ID the number of coils I have. seems like 20 but gets a bit dicey on the last turns... is it another 1/2, two halves make a whole? So 21?

RickW on another post mentioned he swapped all his mainsprings for #38 from Wolff.

Would like to ID my spring, (if able) and see what poundage it has. According to the chart on the sticky the lbs were much greater than 38 in older/original springs.

[F15E_WSO]

So about 8 weeks ago tackling getting my luger up and running again. Long saga here and another post. When "we" left the idea was get some PPU when it showed up again, try that over Fiocchi as I was not able to get gun to "lock out" on last round, and clearly would not cycle.

So while waiting I saw post with suggestion to leave gun in hold-back for a while to "compress" spring...or whatever might happen. Left gun with toggle open for about 3 weeks, saw PPU online, ordered, closed toggle in anticipation of arrival.

Went to range today, box of Fiocchi FMJ (vendor mistakenly sent me Soft Point first time, deal was send me FMJ, vendor pays shipping--seemed reasonable, figured I'd shoot it one day). So thinking I'll try the FMJ before I cycle the PPU through.....one at a time, see if Toggle locks out on final (in this case only round) in magazine. With buddy, we're taking turns. First round, toggle lock!? Second, toggle lock..!? OK, this goes on for first 6 shots. OK, 2 rounds in mag, cycles both, locks. OK!!! He and I continue to fire taking turns, 5 rounds each in the mag. Go through the entire box of 50, 3 stove-pipes(all on him? Conclusion--none).

So did the toggle locked back for 3 weeks have any effect on spring strength? Don't know.
The soft point Fiocchi I fought with originally--all gone.
FMJ Fiocchi more powerful than soft point? Unknown.
FMJ cycle better than soft point? Unknown, didn't try and cycle many soft points as I couldn't even get the toggle to lock, let alone have power to cycle.
Is PPU more powerful--will fire those next time, we'll see if they cycle better. but who knows? Seemed to cycle fine today. Is problem of 50+ yrs of inactivity solved?

Very pleased with gun function today. Don't know why all 3 stovepipes were on him. Read that "firm grip" would but more recoil energy into the toggle and enhance movement. I can see some of the physics in that but not buying it....anecdotal story, can't measure.

The top photo is 25 rds of the Luger at 7M, lower photo is 25 rds of 9mm S&W MP at 7M. I generally say that "it's a poor carpenter that blames his tools..." but in this case the Luger is clearly the better tool in these conditions. Not even close.

[HerrKaiser]

My .30 also played very nice with Fiocchi 92 gr FMJ and had no problems shooting with it. Granted it’s springs feel MUCH weaker than my 9mm and all mechanical functions on it are silky smooth, since whoever had it first seemed to love it a lot. That said it’s holdopen doesn’t work when shooting.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

My .30 also played very nice with Fiocchi 92 gr FMJ and had no problems shooting with it. Granted it’s springs feel MUCH weaker than my 9mm and all mechanical functions on it are silky smooth, since whoever had it first seemed to love it a lot. That said it’s holdopen doesn’t work when shooting.

Herr Kaiser, so you sort of blow off the Hold Open when the Mag is empty? Otherwise, you load a mag, action the toggle to load a round, and then shoot until empty. Not other issues?

[HerrKaiser]

Well I only shot it once because it’s all matching. But when I did I just counted the rounds and manually locked it open after the last shot to reload it. Otherwise it didn’t have any issues whatsoever. Fed, fired, extracted and ejected flawlessly. Magazine feed and release was clean and easy, takedown lever slid smooth as did dis/reassembly procedures. Only issue was toggle not locking open on empty.

[DonVoigt]

Hold open problems can be a pain.
One of my shooters is a 1906(coil mainspring/grip safety). I have two uppers for it.
One is a 9mm 1902 fat barrel profile clone; it holds open every time with any 9mm ammo I feed it.
The "other" barrel is a 4" bull barrel GT special, I was firing it today - used 4 different types 9mm ammo, two factory and two reloads. Only one of the reloads would lock the toggle open when firing.

So what you say has this to do with the OP's 7,65mm- nothing- but it does illustrate the need to get full recoil for the hold open to function! The slightly heavier 4" bull barrel is right on the edge of allowing full recoil due to the "extra" mass.

So- I'm back to "it's the ammo", you gotta' get some PPU!

[Rick W.]

My friends tell me that the Serbian 30 Luger is more stout than the Fiocchi 30 Luger. Just hearsay on my part, I am a handloader for many years.

Some of your pictures suggest a short stroke on the toggle movement, could be a lot of things like too strong a recoil spring, or ammo that is on the soft side. With the breechblock picts colliding with the middle of the next cartridge, suggests the same thing. You might look at the cartridges that got caught in the action, there oughta be a mark from the lower section of the breechblock face on said case. Might be hard to see, but a black magic marker is your friend.

One might consider placing a piece of cheapo masking tape at the rear of the pistol, to see if the rear link ears are banging the rear of the frame around the lanyard ring. If no mark, a short stroke is possible; if marked; then the toggle is fully retracting.

I cannot see how the bullet nose causes extraction/ejection issues, but my comprhensional skills are down now.

With the holdopen jazz, the issues with such can be many. Taking a grip off and watching the magazine button/holdopen interface might help. These pistols are not new anymore, so surfaces may wear and round if you will. Sounds like in the postings, that the holdopen can work on occasion at least.