Police Luger Unit Mark

[Don M]

The idea that the blank toggles on 29 DWMs were left over from the canceled Riff Contract was discussed at length over a year ago in http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25442 and http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...WM-BKIW-Lugers. In brief, the conclusion was that evidence strongly indicated that too many blank toggle Lugers were produced (approx. 15,000) to be explained by the Riff order for "a couple of thousand" pistols as recalled by August Weiss. Has additional evidence been discovered?

Regarding DWM/BKIW production of 9mm Lugers, my research has strongly suggested that, sometime following the disbandment of the IMKK in January 1927, they resumed manufacturing 9mm Lugers with 100mm barrels for the police. This too has been discussed on the forums (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...or-Joop-or-Don). While the pistol that started this thread may have been rebarreled in the late 1930s, I believe its original barrel was also 9mm.

[alanint]

I'm no expert, (and the witness mark on this example is a tick off), But would they have installed a new barrel with the same serial number and suffix, in exactly the same font as the frame, as is the case here? And done it all those years after initial production?

Also, would there have been halos around the barrel serial number and suffix on a replacement barrel, as is also the case here?

[cirelaw]

Help!!Now I'm really confused!

[Ron Wood]

Eric,
The discussion concerns alinint's original post about his gun.

I too am curious about the prospect of it being rebarreled in the mid to late 1930s. I thought the Riff guns were 9mm?

[cirelaw]

Who wants to open another can of worms! I know when to fold!

[alanint]

Judging from the evidence of the pistol itself, I believe that the gun retains an original, not a replacement 9mm barrel.
Some points to consider:
Would they have installed a new barrel with the same serial number and suffix, in exactly the same font as the frame, as is the case here? And done it this way several years after initial production?

Also, would there have been halos around the barrel serial number and suffix on a replacement barrel, as is also the case here?
I would appreciate comments on these points. Either way, it does not detract from the interest or desirability of the pistol.

[Don M]

Doug, I go along with it probably being a replacement. There would be no halos on the barrel serial number and suffix if it was an original. As for the serial number matching that of the frame, that would be a common practice. Also, there were only a few different die fonts used over the span of Luger production so it doesn't seem odd that an armorer would match the frame font.

[cirelaw]

Pardon my ignorence> What is the issue surrounding mine and other police lugers. Im great at Law but not so much Lugerism!

[Jan C Still]

Dwight
I agree with you, the type 2 (Mid Nazi Era) Test proof (1936-1939) on the right receiver and barrel strongly indicates that the barrel of this Luger was replaced in the 1936-1939 time span. Another 29 DWM with the same Mid test proof is shown on page 153 Weimar Lugers (sn 4335u). The 1929 DWM Lugers display several different test proofs on the right receiver.
Jan
Below are a few additional links to the ever interesting and sometimes complex 29 DWM Lugers.
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?7047-POLICE-29-DWM-SN-3541t-RIG&highlight=1929+DWM
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...652#post163652

[Don M]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Pardon my ignorence> What is the issue surrounding mine and other police lugers. Im great at Law but not so much Lugerism!

In this thread, there are three issues:

1. Are all of the blank toggle 29 DWMs leftovers from the canceled contract for Lugers for the Riff tribe in Morocco? This does not apply to your pistol since yours has a DWM logo on the toggle.

2. Did DWM (BKIW) manufacture any 9-mm Lugers after 1921?

3. Is the barrel on alanint's Luger a replacement? Your pistol appears to have its original barrel.

Your familiarity with circumstantial evidence should make you feel right at home in this.

[cirelaw]

Who knew years ago in a Gun show in West Palm I was offered this gun for $800 including a ratty incorrect velvet lined holster.One of our clan offered this way perfect holster a takedown tool #28 'tool cool'. I finally had all the pieces but for Donalds' book I might have traded it long ago! Also Jan's input a the 'Weimer Bible',You both opened a new chapter in luger treasure hunting! Thank You Both, Eric Esq!

[Jan C Still]

Cirelaw
Don said above: "3. Is the barrel on alanint's Luger a replacement? Your pistol appears to have its original barrel."


i agree with Don, your Luger bears only the E/WaA66 acceptance stamp and the C/N and has no indication of later replacement.
Jan

[cirelaw]

Thanks Jan! Lugers usually make sence. The same is not always the same for the scrivners and recorders! "Eric" aka 'Cirelaw'

[Jamka]

Gents,

Please excuse me for being almost absent on the forums; since the beginning of this year I was called back into the family wine bussiness. (Writing and testing Cobol computer programs).

One of the collectors drew my attention to this thread. I like to explain what we know from the documents that came in "the August Weiss Files", and which I used in the book "The Mauser Parabellum 1930 - 1946".

1. Document 65 (written bij august Weiss in 1960)
"Parabellum pistols for Police normally are 9mm. After the First World War, we (DWM) were not allowed by the Entnte to deliver 9mm pistols. In order to keep at east a small part of the large DWM alive, we were already happy to be allowed to deliver 100 pistols a day in the caliber 7.65 for the Police. Barrel lengths of 100mm and longer were also forbidden, so we reduced the barrels to 96 and 98mm. The Police later changed their barrels and also the recoil- and magazine spring; so they had their 9mm pistols". (page 339).

2. Document 26 (1972).
"In DWM Berlin Wittenau after WWI (around 1927) we made a few thousand Parabellum pistols having no DWM marking, destined for the so called Riff tribe in Morocco. These could not be delivered as DWM CEO Baron von Gantard and/or the government thought this was too risky. These pistols were later taken over by the Police in Berlin". (page 340).

3. I have in my collection a Police pistol (sear safety) having a crossed out "7.65" marking on the chamber. It has a 9mm barrel, nicely numbered and witness marked, als well as the stong 9mm recoil spring.

I hope this helps.

[Don M]

The key hangup to concluding that all of the blank toggle 29 DWMs were originally manufactured for export to the Riff Tribe is the apparent inconsistency between August Weiss' reference to a "paar Tausend" which can be understood as either a "few thousand" or a "couple of thousand" and the evidence that approximately 15,000 blank toggle Lugers were produced by DWM/BKIW in the late 1920s. Dwight, some years ago you felt the Riff contract was for 2,500 pistols which is consistent with Weiss' recollection (http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=4937). Have you found new information?

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by Don M

The key hangup to concluding that all of the blank toggle 29 DWMs were originally manufactured for export to the Riff Tribe is the apparent inconsistency between August Weiss' reference to a "paar Tausend" which can be understood as either a "few thousand" or a "couple of thousand" and the evidence that approximately 15,000 blank toggle Lugers were produced by DWM/BKIW in the late 1920s. Dwight, some years ago you felt the Riff contract was for 2,500 pistols which is consistent with Weiss' recollection (http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=4937). Have you found new information?

In 2004, with the publications at the time, that was the estimated production. A lot of information has come under the bridge since then, including August Weiss's comment.

I come down on the side of Herr Weiss's comment that he means "a few thousand." I can't help but think that if he meant 2,000 guns, he would have said "zwei Tausend," but that is my inductive reasoning.

Much of the information in Kenyon is obsolete. I tend toward scepticism of extrapolating production numbers based on reported samples. On the current topic, in the absence of documentation, I simply do not believe the 15,000 figure.


Joop,

In his diary, does Herr Weiss write "das Paar", or "ein paar"?

--Dwight

[Don M]

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

I tend toward scepticism of extrapolating production numbers based on reported samples. On the current topic, in the absence of documentation, I simply do not believe the 15,000 figure.

Dwight, your point is well taken. My earlier estimate of 15,000 was inherently based on the assumption that the reported examples of blank toggle pistols were from a random sample of the total production at that time. However, further reflection leads me to believe the reported examples are from a sample that is heavily biased toward attractiveness to GIs and collectors and therefore represts only a subset of the total production.

I have tried another method of data analysis. Using your Commercial list, I counted 169 reported blank toggles in the s, t, u and v series. If that number is a sample of an original number of 2500 such Lugers, it would represent a 7% "survival" rate. I have calculated survival rates for the Lugers of many police units and this number is reasonable, especially when compared with those of Landjägerei units. Consequently, I now agree with you that the blank toggle 29 DWMs are from the canceled Riff contract and that no other explanation is necessary. Thanks very much for challenging my earlier conclusion.

[cirelaw]

Im posting 2 pages whose tables fall right in my originals, Holster 'L.M.28. Luger L.Ka.124!

[NoncomRetired]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Im posting 2 pages whose tables fall right in my originals, Holster 'L.M.28. Luger L.Ka.124!

I recently purchased a 1929 police sneak with the serial number 6151t and with the unit markings L.Ka 315 in case anyone wants to take note of it's existance. Won't arrive till later this week.

I made a trip to Simpsons in Galesberg last week and while I was there, it was on my agenda to pick up this book but I was distracted and left without getting one. It's still on my agenda.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by NoncomRetired

I recently purchased a 1929 police sneak with the serial number 6151t and with the unit markings L.Ka 315 in case anyone wants to take note of it's existance.

Thanks for the report. Sear and Mag safeties?