Rust Bluing - Page 2

nukem556 · 02-08-2011, 07:33 PM

I'm still a relative newby here, but I'm pretty sure I havent seen any recent posts by Mr chuckc...anyone know of he's still around?

nukem556 · 02-08-2011, 08:23 PM

Timn , I don't think I can buy into your theory that "all rust is created equal". If this were true, I can't see why gunmakers over the years bothered to concoct complicated formulas to rust blue with. Angier lists many of these in his book....which include substances such as nitric and hydrochloric acids, copper sulfate, ferric chloride, mercuric chloride, and various "tinctures" and "vitriols". If simple rust is going to always produce the same shade of black, you'd think they would have just used a cheap, simple solution of any diluted acid. And if hot bluing is just accelerated rust bluing (which it may be), how do you account for the red/plum color many guns ended up with? I doubt there was a drastic enough temperature difference in the bath to color temper the metal, so it had to be a chemical mixture variation.

Also ,in rust bluing the ferric oxide (rust) is converted to ferrous oxide but the trace elements of the solution are still in the matrix of the finish somewhere.....unless they boil off, which begs the question of why they were added in the first place.....my 2 cents

nukem556 · 02-17-2011, 07:05 PM

I'm just about ready to mix up a batch of the formula that chuckc wrote about in his archived posts....I'll try to post some pics of samples of it compared to a couple other available rust blues.

Machine Tool · 02-17-2011, 11:09 PM

Make sure you get a good pic of that thick brown cloud that is produced when you add the raw iron.

nukem556 · 02-18-2011, 06:59 AM

read the formula...it doesn't use any "raw iron"

sheepherder · 02-18-2011, 06:59 AM

A little bit off-topic, but what solution/brand is best to get the brownish-"patina" finish that all old guns seem to end up with??? I have an old gun with some patina on it; I'd like to do it all in that worn brown coloring...

Ron Wood · 02-18-2011, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukem556

read the formula...it doesn't use any "raw iron"

nitric acid 4oz
hydrochloric acid 3oz
iron 1/2 lb
distilled water 1 quart

Nails work OK as long as they aren't galvanized

nukem556 · 02-18-2011, 11:00 AM

no, Ron....I'm talking about the formula chuckc concocted..he called it the "Bern" formula....it's nitric acid, copper sulfate, ferric chloride, alcohol and distilled water

nukem556 · 02-18-2011, 11:04 AM

Post...you might wanna try Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution.....it makes a nice finish and less prone to streaking than others....Midway sells it

Olle · 02-18-2011, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

A little bit off-topic, but what solution/brand is best to get the brownish-"patina" finish that all old guns seem to end up with??? I have an old gun with some patina on it; I'd like to do it all in that worn brown coloring...

You probably want something like the browning you see on some antique guns. Browning and rust bluing is actually the same process. When you're bluing, you boil the parts in water to convert the red oxide to black oxide so the only difference is that you don't boil the parts.

Brownells and Pilkingtons formulas will usually give me a mix of red and black oxide (some parts turn black already when I apply the formula), so I would try somehing less agressive. You could possibly dilute it a bit as well to avoid the black oxide.

Once you're happy with the finish, you rinse in water and oil the parts. Some say that you also have to neutralize in baking soda, but I'm not so sure that this is necessary as long as you rinse good.

Ron Wood · 02-18-2011, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukem556

no, Ron....I'm talking about the formula chuckc concocted..he called it the "Bern" formula....it's nitric acid, copper sulfate, ferric chloride, alcohol and distilled water

Sorry Bob...my mistake. I thought the formula in this thread was the subject. I missed the link for chuckc.

Machine Tool · 02-18-2011, 09:46 PM

My formula calls for clean horse shoe nails

Hugh · 02-19-2011, 01:49 AM

I read in one of the older Luger books that DWM hung the Luger parts by wire in the factory urinal to obtain that beautiful blue/black on their guns. If true, then there is your bluing solution right there--just start collecting it. I don't know if you have to drink German beer to get the right formula or not!!!

sheepherder · 02-19-2011, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh

I read in one of the older Luger books that DWM hung the Luger parts by wire in the factory urinal to obtain that beautiful blue/black on their guns...

I vaguely recall reading that the ancient Japanese sword makers also used various kinds of urine to quench their swords when heat treating/tempering...

Machine Tool · 02-21-2011, 10:30 AM

Could we consider urine a type of salt brine? That is whats called for in quenching water hardened tool steels.

sheepherder · 02-21-2011, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machine Tool

Could we consider urine a type of salt brine? That is whats called for in quenching water hardened tool steels.

Don't know...I've never [intentionally] tasted urine...Although I recall an episode of CSI where some fashionable women drank their own urine...From wine glasses, no less...

In Staging Battalion before leaving for WestPac Ground Forces, we were told that urine was sterile, and that urinating on a contaminated wound was an acceptable (or at least field expedient) substitute for disinfectant...

I wouldn't think it had salt in it...or it wouldn't be sterile...

Ice · 02-21-2011, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

In Staging Battalion before leaving for WestPac Ground Forces, we were told that urine was sterile, and that urinating on a contaminated wound was an acceptable (or at least field expedient) substitute for disinfectant...

I wouldn't think it had salt in it...or it wouldn't be sterile...

They use saline solution all the time and its sterile.

Charlie

sheepherder · 02-21-2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice

They use saline solution all the time and its sterile.

Charlie

Isn't saline solution pH neutral??? Brine is heavy on salt...To the point that it burns in open wounds...

Ron Wood · 02-21-2011, 04:37 PM

Sterile refers to lack of bacterial or virus contamination, not pH.

sheepherder · 02-21-2011, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Sterile refers to lack of bacterial or virus contamination, not pH.

I bow down to superior knowledge...

That being the case...I have no idea...

(Hey - When I'm bored, I'll jump in anywhere...)

02-18-2011, 06:59 AM	#26
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	A little bit off-topic, but what solution/brand is best to get the brownish-"patina" finish that all old guns seem to end up with??? I have an old gun with some patina on it; I'd like to do it all in that worn brown coloring... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

02-19-2011, 01:49 AM	#33
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	I read in one of the older Luger books that DWM hung the Luger parts by wire in the factory urinal to obtain that beautiful blue/black on their guns. If true, then there is your bluing solution right there--just start collecting it. I don't know if you have to drink German beer to get the right formula or not!!! __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!* Last edited by Hugh; 02-19-2011 at 04:54 PM.

02-21-2011, 04:37 PM	#39
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Sterile refers to lack of bacterial or virus contamination, not pH. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

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02-08-2011, 07:33 PM	#21
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	I'm still a relative newby here, but I'm pretty sure I havent seen any recent posts by Mr chuckc...anyone know of he's still around?

02-08-2011, 08:23 PM	#22
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Timn , I don't think I can buy into your theory that "all rust is created equal". If this were true, I can't see why gunmakers over the years bothered to concoct complicated formulas to rust blue with. Angier lists many of these in his book....which include substances such as nitric and hydrochloric acids, copper sulfate, ferric chloride, mercuric chloride, and various "tinctures" and "vitriols". If simple rust is going to always produce the same shade of black, you'd think they would have just used a cheap, simple solution of any diluted acid. And if hot bluing is just accelerated rust bluing (which it may be), how do you account for the red/plum color many guns ended up with? I doubt there was a drastic enough temperature difference in the bath to color temper the metal, so it had to be a chemical mixture variation. Also ,in rust bluing the ferric oxide (rust) is converted to ferrous oxide but the trace elements of the solution are still in the matrix of the finish somewhere.....unless they boil off, which begs the question of why they were added in the first place.....my 2 cents

02-17-2011, 07:05 PM	#23
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	I'm just about ready to mix up a batch of the formula that chuckc wrote about in his archived posts....I'll try to post some pics of samples of it compared to a couple other available rust blues.

02-17-2011, 11:09 PM	#24
Machine Tool User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 16 Thanks: 3 Thanked 5 Times in 1 Post	Make sure you get a good pic of that thick brown cloud that is produced when you add the raw iron.

02-18-2011, 11:00 AM	#28
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	no, Ron....I'm talking about the formula chuckc concocted..he called it the "Bern" formula....it's nitric acid, copper sulfate, ferric chloride, alcohol and distilled water

02-18-2011, 11:04 AM	#29
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Post...you might wanna try Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution.....it makes a nice finish and less prone to streaking than others....Midway sells it

02-18-2011, 09:46 PM	#32
Machine Tool User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 16 Thanks: 3 Thanked 5 Times in 1 Post	My formula calls for clean horse shoe nails

02-21-2011, 10:30 AM	#35
Machine Tool User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 16 Thanks: 3 Thanked 5 Times in 1 Post	Could we consider urine a type of salt brine? That is whats called for in quenching water hardened tool steels.