Russian Lugers at Phoenix Investment Arms

[worldoftone]

I don't know a whole lot about Lugers in general, but I find this thread highly entertaining.

- WOT

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by worldoftone

I don't know a whole lot about Lugers in general, but I find this thread highly entertaining.

- WOT

+ 1

At Albert's suggestion(s), I am trying to wade through his dissertations, both here and at Jan Still's Forum (the theory seems the same, but of course the responses differ) and am finding it heavy going...

...And I am still exploring the Spandau Luger and Death's Head Luger threads over there, of which there are many, and in one of which Jan has posted links to several old threads...

All fascinating stuff, and as WOT noted...highly entertaining...

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by postino

+ 1

At Albert's suggestion(s), I am trying to wade through his dissertations, both here and at Jan Still's Forum (the theory seems the same, but of course the responses differ) and am finding it heavy going...

...And I am still exploring the Spandau Luger and Death's Head Luger threads over there, of which there are many, and in one of which Jan has posted links to several old threads...

All fascinating stuff, and as WOT noted...highly entertaining...

Hello Rich,

It would be wonderful and satisfying if collectors would use a sensible and simple way of thinking (so you don't need to ), but this is not the case. There will be some 'old stubborn goats' who will be critics, but that's alright. It just needs time for it to sink in - it is like politics!

The quicker you adopt to a logical and historical way of thinking, the faster you will learn. And keep away from the 'sharks' who want to misinform you and put their hand in your pocket. Of course, the phrase "I wish...." makes us collectors excited, but it is a anti-climax when it turns out to be false.

Good luck,
Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

The quicker you adopt to a logical and historical way of thinking, the faster you will learn. And keep away from the 'sharks' who want to misinform you and put their hand in your pocket.

Yes indeed...It seems every collector considers themself "The Authority" when it comes to questions on their interests...

When you come right down to it, the best advice is...

Trust...No One...

[Vlim]

Check this out - I hope that I don't 'shot myself in my foot' by saying that the M1906 Portuguese Navy Contract Lugers were instead a Spainish contract ((when I happen to have an outstanding Portuguese Royal Navy rig in my collection)!! (just kidding) Using your line of thought, why not?

Come to think of it, I recently picked up a box of 9mm para that came from Spanish storage and dated from the Spanish civil war. It was filled with ammunition made in Portugal and by DWM in Berlin.

So be careful what you wish for

Anyway, back on topic.

The key points sofar that point towards Bulgarian rather than Russian origin in my opinion are:

-The markings are Bulgarian, not Russian.
-During the contract years, Bulgaria was severing it's ties with the Ottoman (Turkish) empire.
-Early documents, including one from Hans Tauscher, of 1906, and of the Swiss KTA, of 1911 only mention Bulgarian contracts, not Russian.
-Bulgaria had enough Mosin-Nagants to validate the use of M-N rifles on the chamber.

The issues that need to be resolved are.
-The fact that DWM was not allowed to sell to Bulgaria between 1907 and 1914 as a result of a cartel agreement with Steyr.
-No historical record of these lugers in contemporary Russian and Bulgarian documents found sofar.
-No recollection by August Weiss about these contracts, which suggest that, if they took place, they took place long before WW1.

Some consolidation:
-Bulgarian archives appear to be well preserved.
-Cartel agreement between Steyr and DWM means that DWM could only deliver to Bulgaria with approval of Steyr: Hence, possible proof in Steyr / Austrian archives.
-Russian archives are well preserved as well.

The bad news:
-DWM archives used to light the stove and as improvised kleenex during crisis times.
-Most of us lack Bulgarian and Russian language capabilities.

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by worldoftone

I don't know a whole lot about Lugers in general, but I find this thread highly entertaining.

- WOT

I am glad that you are enjoying it. However, there are some stubborn critics who are afraid of the truth after various information is weighed. They are going to continue to rely on weak information and excuses.

Albert

[alanint]

Could they have announced these pistols as being destined for Russia and not Bulgaria in order to circumvent their agreement with Steyr?

It would not be the first time this has occured

[Vlim]

Possible, perhaps, but I don't think so.

There is a comparison possible with a Mauser contract for Serbia (Mauser, being the daugher company of DWM, was subjected to the same rules). Since Mauser had already delivered rifles to Serbia before the cartel agreement, they were allowed, through Steyr, to deliver an additional amount of some 32,000 rifles to Serbia during the cartel period.

Since DWM had already delivered to Bulgaria before the agreement, it is safe to assume that if DWM did deliver to Bulgaria between 1907-1914, they followed the same process as Mauser: i.e. delivery with full support of Steyr.

Of course, Steyr would be compensated for the transactions.

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Vlim,

I am glad to read that you are on the 'Bulgarian theory' side, but notice how the critics will continue to cling on to the 'Russian theory' without being able to put forth any strong information! If early documents ("including one from Hans Tauscher, of 1906, and of the Swiss KTA, of 1911 only mention Bulgarian contracts, not Russian") do not mention a Russian contract, what are the critics trying to believe and hope for?

Albert

[sheepherder]

I've decided that I simply have to have a Russian Luger...Now that I have a good idea of what to look for...

Let's see what GB and GA have to offer...

Oww...Only one on GB...

Luger, DWM,1906 Russian contract, 9mm

Description for Item # 146584853

This one of the rare Lugers for the Luger collector. This is one of 1000 that was manufactured by DWM for Russia in a 1906 contract. This gun is number 44X. This pistol has a "CAL 9MM" marked magazine. The pistol is in excellent condition. It has been professionally restored and it is correct, including the extractor. I have personally seen five Russian Lugers, but I am sure there are a few more. Thank you for looking and good luck bidding. Bank transfer, checks, PayPal or credit cards are accepted, but there is a 3 percent charge if paid by Paypal or credit card. Thank you for looking.

No Reserve...Starting Bid $6500...

Oww...he has a Royal Portuguese Navy 1906 contract Luger starting at $6500 too...

Wow...Should I pull my bid off that Borchardt and get one of these???...Decisions, decisions...

OK, let's look at GA...

GA has one...

1906 RUSSIAN CONTRACT

ALL ORIGINAL 1906 LUGER, NO RESTORATION,95% BLUE, 65% STRAW,ALL NUMBERS ARE MATCHING INC. MAG,THIS RARE LUGER IS CERTIFIED BY TWO WORLD RENOWED LUGER EXPERTS,(DOCUMENTS AVAIL )DWM SCROLL,NO STOCK LUG,GRIP SAFETY,CROSSED NAGANT RIFLES,SAFETY IN CYRILLIC,GOOD BORE,NICE MATCHING GRIPS,MAG BOTTOM ONE HALF EAR MISSING,THREE DIGIT SER # 5XX,ONLY 6 ( NOW 7 ) SAMPLES HAVE BEEN REPORTED. THIS IS ONE OF THE RAREST LUGER IN ANY COLLECTION./////////THIS GUN IS NOW IN THE COLLECTION OF AN OTHER GREAT LUGER COLLECTOR AND I WILL DEARLY MISS IT ///

Price = $15,555.00

I'll pass on that one...No pics...

Let's try AA...

Humph!!! No Russian Contract Lugers on AA...

I'll have to email for more pics on that GB Russian Contract Luger...

Here's the top - pic attached...

DWM, crossed M-N rifles on chamber, grip safety, no stock lug...looks good so far...

[Imperial Arms]

Rich,

You should instead play the stock market!! I guess the 'Russian Luger' is getting your juices flowing!

Good luck,
Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

Rich,

You should instead play the stock market!! I guess the 'Russian Luger' is getting your juices flowing!

Good luck,
Albert

Albert -

I searched GB, AA, and GA for "Bulgarian Contract Luger", but except for this barreled receiver, there weren't any...

(Well, there was one, but it was so buffed out that you couldn't see any of the markings)...

[Imperial Arms]

Rich,

You need to read up on the Bulgarian variations:

1. M1900/03 Bulgarian in caliber 7,65 mm;
2. M1906 Bulgarian in caliber 7,65 mm (some rebarreled to 9 mm);
3. M1908 Bulgarian (as shown in your previous post);
4. M1908 Bulgarian Infantry Officer's Model (ex-Russian Luger).

That should give you something to chew on and hopefully make you realize the Russian Luger is sinking fast.

Enjoy,
Albert

[the gunman]

Albert I must say it's a true pleasure reading your posts.
thank You

Richie

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

Rich,

You need to read up on the Bulgarian variations:

Well, it's really the Russian Contract Lugers I'm interested in right now...

There's a gun show in three weeks; I'll keep my eyes open...and my MasterCard handy...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by postino

I...took a look at Phoenix, and they have...a 1906 Russian with Tula Arsenal proofs...

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com.../827Russ06.htm

Josef at Phoenix writes - "...we will accept layaways of up to one year with at least 20% down and some activity occurring monthly to insure that after one year the sale is completed."

Hmmmm...That is enticing...

[Ron Wood]

Postino,
That may be enticing but you don’t get gun in hand until it is paid off and if you are not satisfied with the gun when you receive it, sorry about that …you are stuck with it. This is not exclusive to Phoenix, most if not all dealers have this policy for layaways.

Albert,
I will be brief. I will address our differences regarding the Russian Lugers at a later time. But for right now I want to remark about your repeated abuse of this and Jan Still’s forums. It is totally obvious that you have severe personal issues with Geoff Sturgess and Chuck Whittaker; you have repeatedly made that abundantly loud and clear. Regardless of what you think, I am not in allegiance with them and I owe them nothing. I possess the capacity to make my own decisions and observations. As a matter of fact I have been an object of their disapproval, but I do not persist in dredging it up time after time with off topic retribution. It is becoming tiresome that you use the forum venues to bad mouth these individuals. Get over it. It is particularly disturbing when you, perhaps inadvertantly, place your own comment "The owner of LOB is Charles Whittacker who is a loyal believer and supporter of Geoff Sturgess, who (GS) wants to be recognized as the 'Pope'", in a quote from Ed Tinker. You should, first of all, make sure you insert a quote correctly without editorial comment, and secondly keep your comments civil. If you have ordained Sturgess as "Pope", your attitude would then seem to infer that you hold yourself in an even higher position. Kindly address the individuals with whom you have a disagreement directly, not on these forums, and spare the members your personal grief and bad manners. Members that do not know about your personal hate of these individuals will take your unbridled disparagement of their opinions as fact when in truth they are mostly reflections of your problems and are only marginally objective at best. I will no longer stand idly by and let you vent your anger with terms like “morons” and “Land of Bull****”. Both the slanderous connotations and foul language are not appropriate for the discussions here. I am not the only one that finds your personal tirades objectionable, and I would hope that you can clean up your act and keep your reasoned arguments on track and leave personalities out of the discussion.

[Vlim]

Ron,

Well said. Let's try to keep our discussions civil and to the point. Personal grudges only help to cloud one's judgement.

What all theories (yes, theories) lack so far is proper, documented period evidence. I will suggest that those involved put more effort into obtaining more proof and less in their grumpy old men acts

[Imperial Arms]

Ron,

You are an excellent and intelligent writer and speaker as well as being a good 'politician'. Not every body in the collectors society understands what is going on in the background, and sadly some of these new collectors are becoming victims caused by the unethical acts and arrogance of a few. Some of these fools decide to make alliances to boost their recognition without realizing the stupidity of their mistakes. If they think that they can attack/condemn any item in my collection without any apparent reason, justification or strong proof, they better prepare for a storm. Those peasants have had their chance over the years to issue an apology to me, which would have made everything afterwards cool and friendly, but instead they decide to ignore their mistake which is fine with me. Any time I am wrong, I shall give an apology without it affecting my reputation. Collectors who know me well enjoy my friendship and I consider myself a pleasant gentleman. Using hard work and endless hours on the telephone since 25+ years, I have been able to build a modest collection without being rich, and I did not use titles, brains or 'flash/animation' to become an expert in the field.

I shall answer later the rest of your remarks. As far as I am concerned, we collectors are all the same and I do not need any titles such as 'Moderator', 'Patron' 'Life Time Member' etc to share my knowledge and enjoyment with other fellow collectors who may value or appreciate my input.

Respectively,
Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

... As far as I am concerned, we collectors are all the same...

Just to clarify...I am not a collector...A "collection" by definition has a theme...The sub-forum heads here and better still [pun], the sub-forums at Jan Still's site are all excellent themes..."WW I Lugers"..."Imperial Lugers"..."Weimar Lugers"..."Artillery Lugers"...

I don't have a theme...I accumulate what I feel is an interesting item...Whether cigarette case lighters; knobbly looking pistols, prototype AR-15 clones; or Buck knives...If it looks interesting to me, I'll try to get at least one...(the closest I have to a "collection" is my 12 cigarette case lighters)...

I've owned 5 Lugers...Pretty much all different...No "theme"...

So I really don't care if it is called a "Russian Luger" or a "Bulgarian Luger" as long as we're all talking about the same thing...I would be interested in a "crossed rifles" crest Luger the same as I would a Portuguese Navy crest Luger, or American Eagle Luger...My interest would be in the crest...and whether it was a commercial contract or a military contract would not impact my interest...

Now it seems that anything with crossed rifles on the chamber is called a "Russian [Contract] Luger"...That is fine with me...I buy Kleenex that is not made by Kimberly-Clark, but everyone knows what it is...

Someone here has an avatar of three different chamber crests...Now that is cool...I would consider those three Lugers to be a "collection"...A small one, but with great potential...

Some day I may start a collection of chamber crested Lugers...Starting with a Russian Contract Luger...

Checking some of the prices from earlier in the year with what is being asked right now, it would seem that Albert's thesis on Russian Lugers has driven the prices up...for "Russian Lugers"...