1940 dwm

KEN · 11-03-2015, 01:24 AM

Please tell me what I've found. I recently purchased this package.

The pistol has all matching numbers with (2) non matching mags. One mag is a typical WWII aluminum bottom mag and the other is a wooden bottom mag of earlier design with nickel plated body. There are no markings on the wood.

The holster is WWI, but has some issues. The lifting strap is missing, one of the belt loops appears to have been repaired with a rivet and the obvious addition to the flap.

I know it has some value though. There is also a nice original belt included with manufacturer's marks and some cursive writing in German on the back side.

Sorry for lack of better pics of the gun, I'm working on that. This is the worse finish issue, otherwise the overall condition is about 90%.

This is the mark on the side of the bolt/toggle link.

And there is a tool.

I apologize if this request seems disjointed, but there are a lot of things to consider. If there are any specific pics you would like, just let me know. TIA Ken

Armin · 11-03-2015, 05:56 AM

Ken,
I am not convinced that the numbers of this gun match. At least the toggle and the extractor have different numbers 40 and 04.
Sorry for the bad news,
Armin.

FNorm · 11-03-2015, 07:57 AM

Ken,

while it appears to be nice package, there are a lot of issues. Appears to be a Mauser 1940 frame, but a DWM toggle assembly. Pre- 1934.

The eagle badge on the holster is not standard iss. also mixing WW1 and WWII

Can't quite make out the stamping on the tool, but looks like a small eagle 63. So WWII

Depending, it might be a good shooter.

FN

Sergio Natali · 11-03-2015, 08:01 AM

Ken

Nice rig, but I'm afraid Armin is right, . anyway would be interesting to see more close up pictures of the gun.

Regards

DavidJayUden · 11-03-2015, 08:29 AM

I can not disagree with anything stated so far. And judging by the lack of the "Mauser hump", I'd suspect some major component co-mingling. More close-ups of the frame numbers, etc, may help, but it seems that this one is a very nice looking shooter.
dju

KEN · 11-03-2015, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armin

Ken,
I am not convinced that the numbers of this gun match. At least the toggle and the extractor have different numbers 40 and 04.
Sorry for the bad news,
Armin.

If you'll look again, you'll see the number on the extractor is 40 not 04. I am going to strip the gun down this week and get some more detailed pics. Stand by......

Armin · 11-03-2015, 09:05 AM

Yes, you are right Ken. Magnifying the picture shows the extractor's number 40. But it is bottom up. Very very unusual !
Regards, Armin.

wlyon · 11-03-2015, 09:06 AM

It looks like the breach block has a Navy marking? Bill

Lugerdoc · 11-03-2015, 09:56 AM

Ken, A few more photos would be helpful: the top of your rear toggle link appears to be marked (can't tell if it's an Erfurt C/letter or DDR C/n inspector's mark) but certainly not the orig Navy rear sight/link that would have matched the Navy marked breech block. Also a better close up of the unusual proof/acceptance marking on the right side of receiver. This may clarify when and where this hybred was put together. Thanks, Tom

alanint · 11-03-2015, 10:01 AM

The rear toggle link has an upside down "42", indicating an armorer's replacement?

tharpo · 11-03-2015, 11:16 AM

Looks like it might a Luger put together by the Germans at a parts depot toward the end of the war. What is the serial number on the front of the frame?

Tom

DonVoigt · 11-03-2015, 11:25 AM

Ken,
you have a nice collection of odds and ends!
Probably a good shooter, it all depends on how much you paid.

The marking on the right does look like a repair depot mark, a better close up would help.

KEN · 11-04-2015, 12:30 AM

Here's a few more pics. I meant to include them in the first posting.

Will get some better pics this week, once I get it stripped down.

Any ideas on value of the belt? Anyone been able to decipher the writing. I know it's hard to see. I'm curious to know, based on what you see so far, what would be a ball park estimation of value on the whole package?

DonVoigt · 11-04-2015, 10:19 AM

Value? What you paid for it would be a good start.

I believe the "42" on the rear toggle may be the Mauser code, and the rear toggle made by mauser as a replacement part, it is numbered "40" on the rear slant to match the frame.

Likely a Heerszugamt repaired P 08; too bad the holster has holes in it for the badge; I have no
idea of belt values.

mrerick · 11-04-2015, 11:47 AM

By 1940, there were only three large factories making military Lugers: Mauser (Oberndorf), Krieghoff (Suhl) and the Swiss W+F (who were making their new pattern pistols).

DWM had closed the line in 1930, Erfurt at the end of WW-I in 1918 (it's tooling and gauges taken to Simson in 1925 and then Krieghoff).

After 1937, all the Mauser made receivers had the "Hump" on the receiver ears at the back.

This one is dated 1940, and has no "hump"... What is the possibility it's a Krieghoff receiver? Is that a real Waffenamt proof stamped on the right of the receiver (the eagle looks like it has an unusual number of horizontal lines)?

So, given the "42" marked Mauser rear toggle, the DWM serial numbered frame and forward toggle, this is a mix of parts from different factories.

in the first of your second set of pictures showing the front of the frame with serial number, it looks like the frame is a couple of millimeters proud of the front of the receiver. If this is the case, it could have an early long frame and a later receiver. I don't know if I'd trust it's safety or reliability if this is the case since it might fire, but could impact the cycle timing.

Marc

ithacaartist · 11-04-2015, 05:45 PM

I had it pegged about the same as Marc. Early, long frame by DWM, 1940 Mauser receiver, DWM toggle train except for, apparently, a Mauser rear toggle link. It's a Heinz gun, made from 57 varieties!

I think the only implication for having the long, protruding frame is that it sticks out. It will probably fire safely unless there's something else amiss.

It would be great to do some swappin' with the right guy, with whom you might pool the parts and assemble two more coherent shooters--one with a long frame, one with a short...

mrerick · 11-04-2015, 06:56 PM

But... it can't be a Mauser receiver. from 1940, they were milling the ears with the hump at the back...

What are the details of the geometry at the front of the frame relative to the position of the locking lever and the receiver lug?

If this ends setting the receiver too far back with reference to the place where the toggle contacts the receiver ears the timing of the action could be changed. it's subtle, but also critical to proper function.

ugafx4 · 11-04-2015, 07:46 PM

The mark on the side is a poorly struck HzA Ingolstadt 20. This is a depot. Another luger just popped up on k98forum.com with the same mark. This is a known WW2 rework depot.

DonVoigt · 11-04-2015, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

But... it can't be a Mauser receiver. from 1940, they were milling the ears with the hump at the back...

What are the details of the geometry at the front of the frame relative to the position of the locking lever and the receiver lug?

If this ends setting the receiver too far back with reference to the place where the toggle contacts the receiver ears the timing of the action could be changed. it's subtle, but also critical to proper function.

The only difference is in the amount of metal "ahead" of the take down lever; everything else is the same, well except the shape of the curve from the front to the trigger guard.

tharpo · 11-04-2015, 10:00 PM

I have a similar gun put together from spare parts. HZa 20. Erfurt frame, 1940 byf. This Luger is pictured on page 261 of the book, The Mauser Parabellum.

11-03-2015, 01:24 AM	#1
KEN User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	1940 dwm Please tell me what I've found. I recently purchased this package. The pistol has all matching numbers with (2) non matching mags. One mag is a typical WWII aluminum bottom mag and the other is a wooden bottom mag of earlier design with nickel plated body. There are no markings on the wood. The holster is WWI, but has some issues. The lifting strap is missing, one of the belt loops appears to have been repaired with a rivet and the obvious addition to the flap. I know it has some value though. There is also a nice original belt included with manufacturer's marks and some cursive writing in German on the back side. Sorry for lack of better pics of the gun, I'm working on that. This is the worse finish issue, otherwise the overall condition is about 90%. This is the mark on the side of the bolt/toggle link. And there is a tool. I apologize if this request seems disjointed, but there are a lot of things to consider. If there are any specific pics you would like, just let me know. TIA Ken

11-03-2015, 08:01 AM	#4
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Ken Nice rig, but I'm afraid Armin is right, . anyway would be interesting to see more close up pictures of the gun. Regards __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

11-03-2015, 09:06 AM	#8
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,673 Thanks: 3,243 Thanked 2,658 Times in 988 Posts	It looks like the breach block has a Navy marking? Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

11-03-2015, 09:56 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Ken, A few more photos would be helpful: the top of your rear toggle link appears to be marked (can't tell if it's an Erfurt C/letter or DDR C/n inspector's mark) but certainly not the orig Navy rear sight/link that would have matched the Navy marked breech block. Also a better close up of the unusual proof/acceptance marking on the right side of receiver. This may clarify when and where this hybred was put together. Thanks, Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-04-2015, 11:47 AM	#15
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,925 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,520 Posts	By 1940, there were only three large factories making military Lugers: Mauser (Oberndorf), Krieghoff (Suhl) and the Swiss W+F (who were making their new pattern pistols). DWM had closed the line in 1930, Erfurt at the end of WW-I in 1918 (it's tooling and gauges taken to Simson in 1925 and then Krieghoff). After 1937, all the Mauser made receivers had the "Hump" on the receiver ears at the back. This one is dated 1940, and has no "hump"... What is the possibility it's a Krieghoff receiver? Is that a real Waffenamt proof stamped on the right of the receiver (the eagle looks like it has an unusual number of horizontal lines)? So, given the "42" marked Mauser rear toggle, the DWM serial numbered frame and forward toggle, this is a mix of parts from different factories. in the first of your second set of pictures showing the front of the frame with serial number, it looks like the frame is a couple of millimeters proud of the front of the receiver. If this is the case, it could have an early long frame and a later receiver. I don't know if I'd trust it's safety or reliability if this is the case since it might fire, but could impact the cycle timing. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-03-2015, 05:56 AM	#2
Armin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Ken, I am not convinced that the numbers of this gun match. At least the toggle and the extractor have different numbers 40 and 04. Sorry for the bad news, Armin.

11-03-2015, 07:57 AM	#3
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Ken, while it appears to be nice package, there are a lot of issues. Appears to be a Mauser 1940 frame, but a DWM toggle assembly. Pre- 1934. The eagle badge on the holster is not standard iss. also mixing WW1 and WWII Can't quite make out the stamping on the tool, but looks like a small eagle 63. So WWII Depending, it might be a good shooter. FN

11-03-2015, 08:29 AM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I can not disagree with anything stated so far. And judging by the lack of the "Mauser hump", I'd suspect some major component co-mingling. More close-ups of the frame numbers, etc, may help, but it seems that this one is a very nice looking shooter. dju

11-03-2015, 09:05 AM	#7
Armin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Yes, you are right Ken. Magnifying the picture shows the extractor's number 40. But it is bottom up. Very very unusual ! Regards, Armin.

11-03-2015, 10:01 AM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	The rear toggle link has an upside down "42", indicating an armorer's replacement?

11-03-2015, 11:16 AM	#11
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 544 Thanks: 118 Thanked 383 Times in 158 Posts	Looks like it might a Luger put together by the Germans at a parts depot toward the end of the war. What is the serial number on the front of the frame? Tom

11-03-2015, 11:25 AM	#12
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	Ken, you have a nice collection of odds and ends! Probably a good shooter, it all depends on how much you paid. The marking on the right does look like a repair depot mark, a better close up would help.

11-04-2015, 12:30 AM	#13
KEN User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Here's a few more pics. I meant to include them in the first posting. Will get some better pics this week, once I get it stripped down. Any ideas on value of the belt? Anyone been able to decipher the writing. I know it's hard to see. I'm curious to know, based on what you see so far, what would be a ball park estimation of value on the whole package?

11-04-2015, 10:19 AM	#14
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	Value? What you paid for it would be a good start. I believe the "42" on the rear toggle may be the Mauser code, and the rear toggle made by mauser as a replacement part, it is numbered "40" on the rear slant to match the frame. Likely a Heerszugamt repaired P 08; too bad the holster has holes in it for the badge; I have no idea of belt values.

11-04-2015, 05:45 PM	#16
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,400 Thanks: 7,555 Thanked 2,643 Times in 1,393 Posts	I had it pegged about the same as Marc. Early, long frame by DWM, 1940 Mauser receiver, DWM toggle train except for, apparently, a Mauser rear toggle link. It's a Heinz gun, made from 57 varieties! I think the only implication for having the long, protruding frame is that it sticks out. It will probably fire safely unless there's something else amiss. It would be great to do some swappin' with the right guy, with whom you might pool the parts and assemble two more coherent shooters--one with a long frame, one with a short... __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

11-04-2015, 06:56 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,925 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,520 Posts	But... it can't be a Mauser receiver. from 1940, they were milling the ears with the hump at the back... What are the details of the geometry at the front of the frame relative to the position of the locking lever and the receiver lug? If this ends setting the receiver too far back with reference to the place where the toggle contacts the receiver ears the timing of the action could be changed. it's subtle, but also critical to proper function. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-04-2015, 07:46 PM	#18
ugafx4 User Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 36 Thanks: 5 Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts	The mark on the side is a poorly struck HzA Ingolstadt 20. This is a depot. Another luger just popped up on k98forum.com with the same mark. This is a known WW2 rework depot.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode