Help in ammunition identification

jamese · 10-30-2003, 07:05 AM

My neighbor gave me this box of 9mm Luger ammunition and said it was his grandfatherÃ¢??s. I know very little about German ammunition and thus I turn to the experts on this forum.

I was hoping that someone could help me identify when then this ammunition was manufactured.

I think its 1943, but would like someone to verify

Jim

Russ · 10-30-2003, 08:21 AM

Hi
yes it is 1943. Thats great that your neighbor gave it to you.

Russ

Lugerdoc · 10-30-2003, 08:22 AM

Jamese, Yes this is 1943 dnh (Rheinisch-Westfalische Sprengstoff AG Werk of Durlach) production steel bullet (armour piercing) ammo in the typical 16rd WW2 box. No only is sale of this ("cop killer") ammo illegal in most states, but the steel projectile will wear down you bore in nothing flat. TH

John Sabato · 10-30-2003, 10:39 AM

Don't shoot that ammo Jamese... It is already collectable and will be valuable in days to come...

Dean · 10-30-2003, 08:10 PM

Are those shell casings steel or just tarnished brass?

RockinWR · 10-30-2003, 10:00 PM

Dean,
St+ = (St)Steel & (+)Improved(lacquer coated).
Bob

Herb · 10-30-2003, 10:50 PM

Without digging out my regs I believe that ammo is illegal to own unless you have a C&R FFL since it is armor piercing.

Dean · 10-30-2003, 10:59 PM

That's interesting. I did not know that the Germans were making steel cased ammo at that time.

I presume this was done because of scarcity of brass during wartime.

When did steel cased small arms ammo get started and by whom? By this I mean "mass produced small arms ammunition" and not isolated early experiments or artillary shells.

John Sabato · 10-31-2003, 12:08 PM

Thin steel jackets do not necessarily mean armor piercing... I don't think those bullets are any more rugged than the standard brass/copper alloy used for bullets... The steel jackets were made exactly for the reasons noted... Brass was getting harder and harder to come by in 1943...

IMHO considering their age, you would really have to have caught the eye of law enforcers by doing shady things in order for them to make a big deal out of this ammo...

If there are regs to the contrary Herb, I would really like to know their source...

Question...in my limited logic...If you don't have to have a C&R license to own a C&R gun, why would you need one to own ancient ammunition?

Edward Tinker · 10-31-2003, 12:12 PM

I had some "steel" bulletted 9mm years ago, shot really nice in my artillery and punched clean holes in thick pieces of wood

. This was before the "armor piercing" debate.

I believe that Herb is right, especially from the standpoint of C&R, it does state something about armor piercing, I think it is for collectable rounds and in many states not an issue, (within that state).

Ed

jamese · 10-31-2003, 05:47 PM

John,
Not only would you have to do something to catch their eye.....you would have to find a cop who knows that the stuff is possible illegal to start with.

I have no intent to fire it, and I do have a C & R
I guess I'll have to check Florida law.

I assumed that the casings were brass, however I checked with a magnet and found them to be steel, along with the bullets

Thanks for the great info, maybe we should post a section on ammunition on the board if there is enought interest?

hipwr223 · 10-31-2003, 10:03 PM

there have been plenty of different rifle and handgun ammo made with mild steel jackets. As far as i know it does not constitute AP. AP is defined by the core material in the bullet if I am not mistaken. now if the core is made of tungsten or some other simliar hard metal, then the AP designation seems appropriate. Does this particular 9mm have a hardened steel core?

10-30-2003, 07:05 AM	#1
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	Help in ammunition identification My neighbor gave me this box of 9mm Luger ammunition and said it was his grandfatherÃ¢??s. I know very little about German ammunition and thus I turn to the experts on this forum. I was hoping that someone could help me identify when then this ammunition was manufactured. I think its 1943, but would like someone to verify Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

10-30-2003, 08:21 AM	#2
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Hi yes it is 1943. Thats great that your neighbor gave it to you. Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

10-30-2003, 08:22 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Jamese, Yes this is 1943 dnh (Rheinisch-Westfalische Sprengstoff AG Werk of Durlach) production steel bullet (armour piercing) ammo in the typical 16rd WW2 box. No only is sale of this ("cop killer") ammo illegal in most states, but the steel projectile will wear down you bore in nothing flat. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-30-2003, 10:39 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Don't shoot that ammo Jamese... It is already collectable and will be valuable in days to come... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-30-2003, 08:10 PM	#5
Dean User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: PA Posts: 132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Are those shell casings steel or just tarnished brass? __________________ Carpe Diem, Parabellum

10-30-2003, 10:00 PM	#6
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Dean, St+ = (St)Steel & (+)Improved(lacquer coated). Bob

10-30-2003, 10:50 PM	#7
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Without digging out my regs I believe that ammo is illegal to own unless you have a C&R FFL since it is armor piercing. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-30-2003, 10:59 PM	#8
Dean User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: PA Posts: 132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	That's interesting. I did not know that the Germans were making steel cased ammo at that time. I presume this was done because of scarcity of brass during wartime. When did steel cased small arms ammo get started and by whom? By this I mean "mass produced small arms ammunition" and not isolated early experiments or artillary shells. __________________ Carpe Diem, Parabellum

10-31-2003, 12:08 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Thin steel jackets do not necessarily mean armor piercing... I don't think those bullets are any more rugged than the standard brass/copper alloy used for bullets... The steel jackets were made exactly for the reasons noted... Brass was getting harder and harder to come by in 1943... IMHO considering their age, you would really have to have caught the eye of law enforcers by doing shady things in order for them to make a big deal out of this ammo... If there are regs to the contrary Herb, I would really like to know their source... Question...in my limited logic...If you don't have to have a C&R license to own a C&R gun, why would you need one to own ancient ammunition? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-31-2003, 12:12 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I had some "steel" bulletted 9mm years ago, shot really nice in my artillery and punched clean holes in thick pieces of wood . This was before the "armor piercing" debate. I believe that Herb is right, especially from the standpoint of C&R, it does state something about armor piercing, I think it is for collectable rounds and in many states not an issue, (within that state). Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-31-2003, 05:47 PM	#11
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	John, Not only would you have to do something to catch their eye.....you would have to find a cop who knows that the stuff is possible illegal to start with. I have no intent to fire it, and I do have a C & R I guess I'll have to check Florida law. I assumed that the casings were brass, however I checked with a magnet and found them to be steel, along with the bullets Thanks for the great info, maybe we should post a section on ammunition on the board if there is enought interest? __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

10-31-2003, 10:03 PM	#12
hipwr223 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	there have been plenty of different rifle and handgun ammo made with mild steel jackets. As far as i know it does not constitute AP. AP is defined by the core material in the bullet if I am not mistaken. now if the core is made of tungsten or some other simliar hard metal, then the AP designation seems appropriate. Does this particular 9mm have a hardened steel core?