S/42 fire test, jammed b'z of 115 ammo

mario17 · 05-06-2016, 12:36 AM

Hi,
I just tested my "new" Luger 1942, S/42. Smith examined it before and told me that it's OK to shoot, I tried 115 gfain FMJ Fiocci and had like 10 of 30 FTE + FTL.
Even last shot didn't bring toggle up.

So far I read that I need to start with mag, is this correct you think?

What ammo is best to try ?
some guys advice more powerful ammo, is it 125?
All above is not FMJ, and I don't want to use it.

Please share your experience, I don't plan to fire it every day, just want to sleep good knowing that I have good condition gun.

Anybody know any good luger pro in SF Bay Area (USA).

Thanks
Mario

ithacaartist · 05-06-2016, 02:30 AM

Vic,

The failure to (eject or extract?) is generally not directly related the failure to feed, though, as you've demonstrated here, they can certainly occur simultaneously. It's best if your smith has Luger experience.

In the meantime, you can first check for a weak mainspring using the masking tape technique. Stick a piece of tape on the back of the frame , centered directly below the "duck-tail" of the rear toggle joint. If the spring is weak, the duck-tail will slap the frame there, and the tape will be really mooshed if it is being slapped hard. The lighter the mark, the less worry about a weak spring. Wolff springs, or Lugerdoc, here on the forum, will sell you a new one if necessary.

If it is not extracting, check the extractor for a chipped claw, or buildup of crud in its well. Maybe it needs a new spring.

If it is not ejecting, a simple thing to check is a bent or broken ejector. With the toggle locked back on an empty mag, you should be able to tell whether the end of the ejector sticks in far enough to hit the round. Otherwise, the bolt may not be going back far enough--which can be for a variety of reasons. But it can't be doing this and slapping, too.

Luger mag springs are stout and powerful. A weak one causes problems, so a couple new MecGar mags are in order, for shooting.

Winchester "White Box" 115 gr. FMJ is the go-to ammo for starters and tuning. Although Fiocchi and S&B are also fine ammo, they may be a tad hotter than the Win, due to their European origin. No +P, +P+, or anything marked NATO. Most Lugers should be able to handle the 124 gr. FMJ loads, as well.

The Luger mechanism is a grand concert of steel masses, momentums, geometry, springs, and a small explosion. Issues can present strangely or sometimes be a bit complex, but when the orchestra is tuned up right, I think I'm not alone in saying it can play one heck of a sweet song!

John Sabato · 05-06-2016, 08:37 AM

In my experience, Fiocchi ammunition is underpowered, in case it gets used in a 9mm Italian pistol known as Glisenti which is not as strong an action as a Luger.

With proper lubrication, and the use of Winchester White Box ammo (available at Walmart, as well as other places), should give you a more enjoyable shooting experience.

kurusu · 05-06-2016, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

In my experience, Fiocchi ammunition is underpowered, in case it gets used in a 9mm Italian pistol known as Glisenti which is not as strong an action as a Luger.

With proper lubrication, and the use of Winchester White Box ammo (available at Walmart, as well as other places), should give you a more enjoyable shooting experience.

John,

From my experience Fiocchi ammunition is not really underpowered. It's much worse than that. Fiocchi ammunition is inconsistent, in velocities and pressures.

mrerick · 05-06-2016, 09:35 AM

Mario,

Welcome to the forum.

The Luger is a rather unique mechanism. As mentioned it is balanced and it's proper cycling is dependent upon that balance of forces.

Most gunsmiths are not familiar with the Luger mechanism. There are a few specialists that have studied it and understand it. You'll also find that experience here on the forum.

Some of the parts you'll need to check are require dis-assembly beyond field stripping. If you're not comfortable with that, you should get it to a gunsmith familiar with the Luger.

In addition to the problems mentioned above, there might also be problems with the chamber which are preventing extraction.

Without pictures or the gun in hand it's hard to help much further...

Marc

Zorba · 05-06-2016, 02:41 PM

Replace the mainspring with a new one, THEN troubleshoot the problem.

DonVoigt · 05-06-2016, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mario17

Hi,
I just tested my "new" Luger 1942, S/42. Smith examined it before and told me that it's OK to shoot, I tried 115 gain FMJ Fiocci and had like 10 of 30 FTE + FTL.
Even last shot didn't bring toggle up.

So far I read that I need to start with mag, is this correct you think?

What ammo is best to try ?
some guys advice more powerful ammo, is it 125?
All above is not FMJ, and I don't want to use it.

Please share your experience, I don't plan to fire it every day, just want to sleep good knowing that I have good condition gun.

Anybody know any good luger pro in SF Bay Area (USA).

Thanks
Mario

Mario,
take it a step at a time.
You must, IMO, start with "known" ammo.
Winchester White box std. velocity in 115 fmj or 124 g fmj is ok, do not use Winchester or any other "Nato" 124 g loading.
S&B 115g ball also works for me. As does 115 g PPU. But go with the WWB if you can find it.

First, strip, clean, and lube with good OIL.

Load one round in the magazine, charge and fire.

If the round ejects and the toggle locks open, move on to a full mag.

If the round does not eject- check:
-ejector
-extractor hook, spring, clean seat

Try one round again.

If it does not trouble shoot at that point, could be:
-hold open broken
-magazine problem, buy a new mec-gar or borrow known good mags and try them
-Mainspring may be too strong- but I doubt it, would be dang near impossible to get in the action

Try the full mag to determine loading and ejection reliability.

Report back in!

Eugen · 05-06-2016, 05:56 PM

I am making notes for future reference. Sounds like good advice being shared.

mario17 · 05-06-2016, 06:38 PM

Thanks Lifer and all,

Trying to digest your "masking tape" technique, if anybody can point me to any pic, illustrations?
after sticking tape to I need to shoot? sorry bit lost in translation.

* I also noticed that after last shot, when toggle up, I removed mag, trying to close toggle sometime it needs little help to bring it all the way down, it's kinda not closing completely itself, which might be indicator for loose spring. (?)

re. FTEject and "chipped claw"
I have brass ejected from bore and stuck in the opening, so I can see it whole. so I think claw might loosing grip in the halfway?

I think I'm moving into Luger GunSmith'ing...

Thanks all
M

ithacaartist · 05-06-2016, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mario17

Thanks Lifer and all,

Trying to digest your "masking tape" technique, if anybody can point me to any pic, illustrations?
after sticking tape to I need to shoot? sorry bit lost in translation.

Read this thread to get an idea of the area in question: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...nts#post233214 Yes, you would fire a test round.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mario17

* I also noticed that after last shot, when toggle up, I removed mag, trying to close toggle sometime it needs little help to bring it all the way down, it's kinda not closing completely itself, which might be indicator for loose spring. (?)

If it fails to close completely when it is released with a snap, then there is a problem. If you're releasing it to battery slowly/gently by hand, this will happen. Pull back enough to disengage from the hold-open, then let 'er fly.

Quote:

re. FTEject and "chipped claw" I have brass ejected from bore and stuck in the opening, so I can see it whole. so I think claw might loosing grip in the halfway?

It sounds as if it's extracting OK, but it is having trouble ejecting, resulting in the "stovepipe" jam. The above suggestions would still apply for the extractor, which might contribute.

mario17 · 05-07-2016, 06:37 PM

Thanks DonVoigt, and all again.

Yes, I preparing for my second test. Will go step by step. Wish I can do it next day, but alas need find a time, will keep all posted.
Note to hold hand firmly is very important. I think I didn't do this.
I did smith inspection, stripping, oiling before, and got his OK to shoot.

Thanks much agin, I'm so happy to meet so many knowledge and willing to help from all.

Do we have here people from they whole world ? I'm US, CA. Moved here from Poland.
I posted some photos below

Best
Mario
S42 Photo Click Here

S42 Claw Click Here

S42 Seat Click Here

S42 Main Spring Click Here

DavidJayUden · 05-06-2016, 07:06 PM

M:
Regarding your very last question, the round may not be hitting the ejector hard enough to be thrown out to the side, thus gets pushed forward again, jamming the works.
FTEject, failure to eject
chipped claw probably refers to a broken claw on the extractor, but that's just a guess.
You have gotten good advice. Good known ammo. One round then several, however resist jamming the magazine completely full. Load 5 or 6.
If you replace the magazine, go with Mec-Gar brand.
If you can photo the "hook" on the back end of the ejector spring (strip of metal on the right side) it may help us.
Above all, be patient, don't go brutal or medieval on the gun. We'll get you thru this hic-up.
dju

DavidJayUden · 05-06-2016, 07:20 PM

Don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but hold the gun very firmly when you shoot it. A loose grip can be the cause of function problems.
dju

Vlim · 05-08-2016, 08:17 AM

Can you show a photo of the other side of the pistol as well?

If the tip of the ejector spring (flat leaf spring on the right) is broken off, you will get the same result. The spring must have a triangular extension which contacts the front of the toggle (you will see that the front of the toggle 'bolt' has a linear groove in which the ejector spring 'rides'.

kurusu · 05-08-2016, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Can you show a photo of the other side of the pistol as well?

If the tip of the ejector spring (flat leaf spring on the right) is broken off, you will get the same result. The spring must have a triangular extension which contacts the front of the toggle (you will see that the front of the toggle 'bolt' has a linear groove in which the ejector spring 'rides'.

In Vlim's line of thinking I would also like to see a picture of your pistol taken just like this one:

Click image for larger version

Name: 8024right.jpg
Views: 36
Size: 89.7 KB
ID: 58736

Also would like to see another picture of the feed ramp but this time taken after cleaning.

mario17 · 05-08-2016, 02:22 PM

Tx Vlim, and all

here is one I have, I will do like above with toggle up shortly.

Right Side with mag IN Click here

kurusu · 05-08-2016, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mario17

Tx Vlim, and all

here is one I have, I will do like above with toggle up shortly.

Right Side with mag IN Click here

Well, it seems you will need a new ejector.

With the action closed the ejector should be flush flat with the frame and not bent inward.

mario17 · 05-08-2016, 02:38 PM

Tx kurusu, I got an idea,
I'll check one more time this flush end when home, and if its moving along toggle, not sure about pic, hard to see.
Will update asap.

If it's case we talking about ejector spring or whole ejector replace?

M

DonVoigt · 05-08-2016, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mario17

Tx kurusu, I got an idea,
I'll check one more time this flush end when home, and if its moving along toggle, not sure about pic, hard to see.
Will update asap.

If it's case we talking about ejector spring or whole ejector replace?

M

The ejector is one piece, it is itself the spring and has the right angle protrusion that strikes the cartridge.

kurusu · 05-08-2016, 03:38 PM

The most probable reason for the ejector being inwards with a close action is a broken tip in the breech end.

There are a few pictures in my next posts.

05-06-2016, 12:36 AM	#1
mario17 User Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: California, SF Bay Area Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	S/42 fire test, jammed b'z of 115 ammo Hi, I just tested my "new" Luger 1942, S/42. Smith examined it before and told me that it's OK to shoot, I tried 115 gfain FMJ Fiocci and had like 10 of 30 FTE + FTL. Even last shot didn't bring toggle up. So far I read that I need to start with mag, is this correct you think? What ammo is best to try ? some guys advice more powerful ammo, is it 125? All above is not FMJ, and I don't want to use it. Please share your experience, I don't plan to fire it every day, just want to sleep good knowing that I have good condition gun. Anybody know any good luger pro in SF Bay Area (USA). Thanks Mario

05-06-2016, 02:30 AM	#2
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,294 Thanks: 7,068 Thanked 2,489 Times in 1,327 Posts	Vic, The failure to (eject or extract?) is generally not directly related the failure to feed, though, as you've demonstrated here, they can certainly occur simultaneously. It's best if your smith has Luger experience. In the meantime, you can first check for a weak mainspring using the masking tape technique. Stick a piece of tape on the back of the frame , centered directly below the "duck-tail" of the rear toggle joint. If the spring is weak, the duck-tail will slap the frame there, and the tape will be really mooshed if it is being slapped hard. The lighter the mark, the less worry about a weak spring. Wolff springs, or Lugerdoc, here on the forum, will sell you a new one if necessary. If it is not extracting, check the extractor for a chipped claw, or buildup of crud in its well. Maybe it needs a new spring. If it is not ejecting, a simple thing to check is a bent or broken ejector. With the toggle locked back on an empty mag, you should be able to tell whether the end of the ejector sticks in far enough to hit the round. Otherwise, the bolt may not be going back far enough--which can be for a variety of reasons. But it can't be doing this and slapping, too. Luger mag springs are stout and powerful. A weak one causes problems, so a couple new MecGar mags are in order, for shooting. Winchester "White Box" 115 gr. FMJ is the go-to ammo for starters and tuning. Although Fiocchi and S&B are also fine ammo, they may be a tad hotter than the Win, due to their European origin. No +P, +P+, or anything marked NATO. Most Lugers should be able to handle the 124 gr. FMJ loads, as well. The Luger mechanism is a grand concert of steel masses, momentums, geometry, springs, and a small explosion. Issues can present strangely or sometimes be a bit complex, but when the orchestra is tuned up right, I think I'm not alone in saying it can play one heck of a sweet song! __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

05-06-2016, 08:37 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	In my experience, Fiocchi ammunition is underpowered, in case it gets used in a 9mm Italian pistol known as Glisenti which is not as strong an action as a Luger. With proper lubrication, and the use of Winchester White Box ammo (available at Walmart, as well as other places), should give you a more enjoyable shooting experience. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-06-2016, 09:35 AM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,901 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Mario, Welcome to the forum. The Luger is a rather unique mechanism. As mentioned it is balanced and it's proper cycling is dependent upon that balance of forces. Most gunsmiths are not familiar with the Luger mechanism. There are a few specialists that have studied it and understand it. You'll also find that experience here on the forum. Some of the parts you'll need to check are require dis-assembly beyond field stripping. If you're not comfortable with that, you should get it to a gunsmith familiar with the Luger. In addition to the problems mentioned above, there might also be problems with the chamber which are preventing extraction. Without pictures or the gun in hand it's hard to help much further... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-06-2016, 05:56 PM	#8
Eugen User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Newburgh,IN Posts: 772 Thanks: 375 Thanked 606 Times in 322 Posts	I am making notes for future reference. Sounds like good advice being shared. __________________ “God created war so that Americans would learn geography.” ― Mark Twain

05-06-2016, 02:41 PM	#6
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 951 Thanks: 776 Thanked 526 Times in 289 Posts	Replace the mainspring with a new one, THEN troubleshoot the problem.

05-06-2016, 06:38 PM	#9
mario17 User Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: California, SF Bay Area Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Lifer and all, Trying to digest your "masking tape" technique, if anybody can point me to any pic, illustrations? after sticking tape to I need to shoot? sorry bit lost in translation. * I also noticed that after last shot, when toggle up, I removed mag, trying to close toggle sometime it needs little help to bring it all the way down, it's kinda not closing completely itself, which might be indicator for loose spring. (?) re. FTEject and "chipped claw" I have brass ejected from bore and stuck in the opening, so I can see it whole. so I think claw might loosing grip in the halfway? I think I'm moving into Luger GunSmith'ing... Thanks all M

05-07-2016, 06:37 PM	#11
mario17 User Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: California, SF Bay Area Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks DonVoigt, and all again. Yes, I preparing for my second test. Will go step by step. Wish I can do it next day, but alas need find a time, will keep all posted. Note to hold hand firmly is very important. I think I didn't do this. I did smith inspection, stripping, oiling before, and got his OK to shoot. Thanks much agin, I'm so happy to meet so many knowledge and willing to help from all. Do we have here people from they whole world ? I'm US, CA. Moved here from Poland. I posted some photos below Best Mario S42 Photo Click Here S42 Claw Click Here S42 Seat Click Here S42 Main Spring Click Here Last edited by mario17; 05-09-2016 at 11:13 PM.

05-06-2016, 07:06 PM	#12
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	M: Regarding your very last question, the round may not be hitting the ejector hard enough to be thrown out to the side, thus gets pushed forward again, jamming the works. FTEject, failure to eject chipped claw probably refers to a broken claw on the extractor, but that's just a guess. You have gotten good advice. Good known ammo. One round then several, however resist jamming the magazine completely full. Load 5 or 6. If you replace the magazine, go with Mec-Gar brand. If you can photo the "hook" on the back end of the ejector spring (strip of metal on the right side) it may help us. Above all, be patient, don't go brutal or medieval on the gun. We'll get you thru this hic-up. dju

05-06-2016, 07:20 PM	#13
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but hold the gun very firmly when you shoot it. A loose grip can be the cause of function problems. dju

05-08-2016, 08:17 AM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,957 Times in 1,200 Posts	Can you show a photo of the other side of the pistol as well? If the tip of the ejector spring (flat leaf spring on the right) is broken off, you will get the same result. The spring must have a triangular extension which contacts the front of the toggle (you will see that the front of the toggle 'bolt' has a linear groove in which the ejector spring 'rides'.

05-08-2016, 02:22 PM	#16
mario17 User Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: California, SF Bay Area Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tx Vlim, and all here is one I have, I will do like above with toggle up shortly. Right Side with mag IN Click here Last edited by mario17; 05-09-2016 at 02:41 AM.

05-08-2016, 02:38 PM	#18
mario17 User Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: California, SF Bay Area Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tx kurusu, I got an idea, I'll check one more time this flush end when home, and if its moving along toggle, not sure about pic, hard to see. Will update asap. If it's case we talking about ejector spring or whole ejector replace? M

05-08-2016, 03:38 PM	#20
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 929 Times in 509 Posts	The most probable reason for the ejector being inwards with a close action is a broken tip in the breech end. There are a few pictures in my next posts. Last edited by kurusu; 05-08-2016 at 05:31 PM.