I Give Up on the P08

[Michael Zeleny]

My original all-matching 1937 HK shooter is consistently short-stroking even with a fresh Wolff 36# mainspring. To date, the only 4" Luger ever to work for me has been a 1906 AE with a palpably tired mainspring. I don't know how y'all manage to empty a full P08 magazine without a failure to cycle. Henceforth all my Luger shooting will be in 7.65 Para with 1900 DWM, 06/29 W+F, and 06/35 Mauser variants, with 9mm Para relegated to LP08. Never a problem with these pieces.

[Edward Tinker]

Michael, don't know what to tell you, sometimes its the magazine and sometimes its Lord knows what

I don't shoot enough to give advice, except to say the artillery I bought years ago / reblued, buffed bad and completely reliable, which I can't say with many others lugers I have owned.

[Michael Zeleny]

I thought of trying Wolff's 10% heavier mag springs, but they won't be any good for a short-stroking canon assembly. I could go to 40# springs and NATO spec ammo, but that would be dead wrong. My favorite Luger operation theory, as confirmed by my experience with Artillery models, especially with the board stock attached, is that 9mm Para requires more inertia in the canon than is contributed by a standard profile 4" tube. Pretty much everyone who shoots these guns competitively in Old Europe, uses a heavier barrel. I look forward to trying a 6" Werle-built piece that I have coming in from Germany.

[JTD]

I have shot about 15 different lugers, and only 1 mixmaster gave me any real problems. A firm wrist/grip is esential, as "limp wristing" will absorb some of the toggles enertia, causing what you describe. My opinion is parts guns may need some tinkering, with parts being hand fit originally. John

[DavidJayUden]

I went thru a lot with 4" 9mm guns as we were trying to find a good cast bullet load. Seemed like no 4" gun liked them, however the Artillery and Navy models would shoot them. Send one gun to Lugerdoc, who shot it (with factory ammo I'm sure) and he sent it back as good to go. Still wouldn't shoot the cast bullet loads but would run with S&B 115 fmj.
Then I switched all my loads to 115 FMJ (back when you could still find them...) and all has been well since.
It seems to have been an issue of pressure and sufficient recoil that made the difference, however the same load/powder was used in both instances.
So to make a long story shorter, it was the ammo for me that made the difference. The right ammo and even my 4" Lugers have become quite reliable.
And I am now forced to go back to cast bullets, so the circle of frustration begins once again.
dju

[Michael Zeleny]

I shoot about 1000 rounds of factory centerfire ammo a month, most of it factory FMJ in 9mm Para and .357 Magnum. I get lots of free hollowpoint ammo from a friend in civil service, but my religion forbids me to squander it at the range, and it's no good in a Luger anyway. My 7.65 Para guns have the most latitude, ranging from anemic Fiocchi to peppy Norma loads. The Artilleries work fine with WWB and S&B, and don't seem to mind Blaser or Federal. Nothing works in the 4" P08. Yes, I have gone through every spring configuration. No, I'm not limp-wristing.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

I went thru a lot with 4" 9mm guns as we were trying to find a good cast bullet load. Seemed like no 4" gun liked them, however the Artillery and Navy models would shoot them. Send one gun to Lugerdoc, who shot it (with factory ammo I'm sure) and he sent it back as good to go. Still wouldn't shoot the cast bullet loads but would run with S&B 115 fmj.
Then I switched all my loads to 115 FMJ (back when you could still find them...) and all has been well since.
It seems to have been an issue of pressure and sufficient recoil that made the difference, however the same load/powder was used in both instances.
So to make a long story shorter, it was the ammo for me that made the difference. The right ammo and even my 4" Lugers have become quite reliable.
And I am now forced to go back to cast bullets, so the circle of frustration begins once again.
dju

Dave:

You should try some lead cast bullets, out of the RCBS 121 grain Truncated Cone mold, with an O.A.L. of 1.142 inches (29 mms) and sized to .356 inches. For me, the best powder to date has been Accurate #5 (very accurate).

Lugers are "timed" for bullets between 115 grains and 130 grains. Other weights may or may not function trustworthly.

Sieger

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Sieger

You should try the RCBS 121 gr Truncated Cone...

...???...What are you referring to here???

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by postino

...???...What are you referring to here???

Hi:

Please reread my modified posting above.

Thanks!


Sieger

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Dave:

You should try some lead cast bullets, out of the RCBS 121 grain Truncated Cone mold...

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi:
Please reread my modified posting above.
Thanks!

Sieger

Yes, that does make a bit more sense...

Have you tried the 124gr FMJ truncated cone Hornady bullets??? I used them in my 357 AMP and 38/45 Clerke cartridges...

[John Sabato]

All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett


You could always send it to LugerDoc or Thor, who will make it work for you...

[G.T.]

Michael, when ever we had, seemingly unsolvable, troublesome units we would take a known working unit and switch parts one at a time, until we found or eliminated the item that was deficient... as in, try your cannon ass'y on a different frame, etc. etc..., I know you have some of my upgraded mags and these will work in any P.08, but switch them out also, as it can still be anything... I will send you original replacement mainsprings if you need something different to try... But, WWB ammo should be your baseline... If a Luger works, it will work with WWB ammo. Change one thing at a time, make your test parameters the same evey time... fail better! you can't give up, you're just getting started... best to you, til...lat'r....GT

[JD]

Michael,

What symptoms is your luger exhibiting that leads you to think it is short stroking? The reason I'm asking is that in lugers, a mainspring that is too weak can exhibit behavior that in other guns would be a sign of short stroking. If the mainspring is too weak (or ammo too hot) a luger can fail to lock open or fail to pick up a round from the magazine because the action is cycling too quickly.

Anyway, just wondering about what you are seeing....

[Michael Zeleny]

I understand short-stroking as a stoppage caused by the breech failing to retract far enough to eject the spent case. All my Lugers are original. In my experience, action parts don't interchange even on W+F and HK Lugers allegedly made to be amenable to mixing and matching.

[gill120]

I ve gotta put my two cents into . I can also be a week spring in the magazine that causes the problem you are having. Try different magazines until one works well for you.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

I understand short-stroking as a stoppage caused by the breech failing to retract far enough to eject the spent case. All my Lugers are original. In my experience, action parts don't interchange even on W+F and HK Lugers allegedly made to be amenable to mixing and matching.

Dave:

Typically the "Luger Jam" is not an ejection problem, but rather, a hang-up with the next round stuck partially up the feed ramp. Is this your problem?

Your extractor spring could be too weak, but not in a dozen different pistols.


Sieger

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Typically the "Luger Jam" is not an ejection problem, but rather, a hang-up with the next round stuck partially up the feed ramp. Is this your problem?

Your extractor spring could be too weak, but not in a dozen different pistols.

That may well be the typical issue, but in my case the problem is clearly an instance of short-stroking suggestive of excessive mainspring rate even with a 36 pound spring in place.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

That may well be the typical issue, but in my case the problem is clearly an instance of short-stroking suggestive of excessive mainspring rate even with a 36 pound spring in place.

Mike:

Please take a look at the specs. of the ammo you are shooting, as what you are suggesting as the problem seems almost impossible to me, given the "hotness" of modern 9 mm ammo.

Original DWM specs.: 123 grain bullet at 1,076 fps.

WWB specs.: 115 grain bullet at 1,190 fps.

NATO Military spec.: 121 grain bullet at 1,260 fps.

What you are suggesting as the problem should be just the opposite, that being, that hotter ammo should need a heavier spring, not a lighter one. Make sense?

Thanks!


Sieger

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Dave:

Please take a look at the specs. of the ammo you are shooting, as what you are suggesting as the problem seems almost impossible to me, given the "hotness" of modern 9 mm ammo.

Original DWM specs.: 123 grain bullet at 1,076 fps.

WWB specs.: 115 grain bullet at 1,190 fps.

NATO Military spec.: 121 grain bullet at 1,260 fps.

What you are suggesting as the problem should be just the opposite, that being, that hotter ammo should need a heavier spring, not a lighter one. Make sense?

Thanks!


Sieger

First off, I am not Dave. Secondly, the Luger toggle action reciprocates in proportion to the bullet's momentum, not its muzzle energy. That's why WWB works so well with the original spring rates -- for everyone else, but not for me.

[John Sabato]

Matching Part #'s even in a Krieghoff doesn't guarantee smoothness. Does the breechblock travel smoothely in the upper receiver if the sear is removed? Or does it bind anywhere? Be generous with gun oil in those grooves. Does the stripped upper receiver travel easily in the frame? Any problem with ejection with or without a magazine iinserted? Try removing the left grip. The interior of the grip may be rubbing on the mag button wth just enough drag to slow down the follower so it misses the feed timing cycle causing a failure to feed.