sub caliber insert

weissbrot1 · 08-26-2009, 01:50 AM

when dad brought back a 1916 luger in 1945, there was an insert with it that appeared to fit into the barrel and lock on the front sight. this piece is composed of a 4 inch tube that fits into the barrel( 22 or 25 caliber?) there is a collar that locks onto the front sight and behind that is two knurled? bands~3/4 inches and a third band `1/2 IN FOLLOWED BY A SMOOTH BAND AND THEN A 1/2 INCH BAND. i KNOW THIS IS NOT A VERY GOOD DESCRIPTION, BUT ANY INFO WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. dAD SAID HE THOUGHT IT MAY HAVE BEEN USED FOR EXECUTIONS , BUT WAS NOT SURE. the pistol was captured iin bavaria. Thanks for your help.
Jerry

Ron Wood · 08-26-2009, 02:25 AM

The insert your dad brought back was not used for anything as sinister as executions. It is a 4mm single-shot conversion used for indoor target practice. It used an inexpensive low-powered round that would probably break the skin but wouldn't penetrate to a depth to be lethal (unless a really freaky accident happened, and I certainly would not want to be shot with one!). From your description the unit was almost certainly of the type manufactured by Rheinisch-Westfalische Sprengstoff A.G/Weiss located in Nurnberg. It was used by the Reichswehr for training.

Cristi · 08-26-2009, 04:02 AM

I think is similar with this one

weissbrot1 · 08-26-2009, 01:21 PM

my insert doesn,t loook anything like yours. i will try to attach a picture if i can figure out how to do it. thanks fot the reply.
jerry

Edward Tinker · 08-26-2009, 04:23 PM

Jerry, I bet its the type I have, will try to shoot a picture tonight. Mine is a police and I bet your's is the same type, tehy made them for police and for military.

Edward Tinker · 08-26-2009, 07:38 PM

Here is the type I have, the round tube has rifeling in it.

The end piece is Schutzpolizei Berlin.

There is a spring like action as you push it on; unsure if you shot single rounds or used one of those 4mm magazines. The lip at the rear is not beveled like a 45 acp barrel, so it makes me believe that it was placed one round at a time.

BTW, there is not a snap cap or round in the chamber, the end of the rifeled tube pushed up the extractor.

Ed

weissbrot1 · 08-31-2009, 03:37 PM

there should be 5 pictures attached to this message. sorry about the quality of these pictures. please let me know if they came through so i know i did it right this time.

weissbrot1 · 08-31-2009, 03:53 PM

DSCF0115.jpg

DSCF0116.jpg

DSCF0117.jpg

DSCF0118.jpg

DSCF0119.jpg

Edward Tinker · 09-01-2009, 09:24 AM

I presume mine is just a normal one then ;>)

ed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Here is the type I have, the round tube has rifeling in it.

The end piece is Schutzpolizei Berlin.

There is a spring like action as you push it on; unsure if you shot single rounds or used one of those 4mm magazines. The lip at the rear is not beveled like a 45 acp barrel, so it makes me believe that it was placed one round at a time.

BTW, there is not a snap cap or round in the chamber, the end of the rifeled tube pushed up the extractor.

Ed

klaus 3338 · 09-01-2009, 01:32 PM

Edward, it is not a normal one. I found only 5 like yours in 25 years collecting. But the RWS one is really rare. I never owned one, yes, I never had one in my hand. So, some closeup photos would be nice.

weissbrot1 · 09-01-2009, 04:36 PM

I hope some of these are better. i will try my sons camera tomorrow.DSCF0140.jpg

DSCF0139.jpg

DSCF0136.jpg

DSCF0135.jpg

DSCF0134.jpg

DSCF0133.jpg

DSCF0130.jpg

DSCF0129.jpg

DSCF0128.jpg

DSCF0127.jpg

sheepherder · 08-31-2009, 07:24 PM

Weissbrot1 - The first pic looks OK, but you lost the focus for the other four...

Ron Wood · 08-31-2009, 08:00 PM

Your photos confirm that this sub-caliber conversion unit was made by Rheinisch-Westfalische Sprengstoff A.G/Weiss. See page 319 of Eugene Bender's "Luger Holsters and Accessories of the 20th Century". In the last photo it appears that there is some writing on the end of the barrel insert...can you read it?

weissbrot1 · 08-31-2009, 09:22 PM

the writing on end of insert is 15
1700 as written. I have no idea when this unit was manufactured--it was shipped home in 1945 along with the pistol and two bayonets according to the paperwork filled out for shipment to the states.

klaus 3338 · 09-01-2009, 02:21 AM

Weissbrot, this conversion unit is the rarest I know to exist. Some better (much better) photos would be nice.
Regards Klaus

Vlim · 09-01-2009, 04:50 PM

Here's a scan from the 1936 RWS catalog.

Note the little loading spoon and the construction of the ring.

The RWS barrels were actually numbered to identify the pistol type they belonged to.

Number 15 was the 9mm version, 100mm barrel length and 160mm insert barrel length.

Other numbers were:
Number, calibre, original barrel length, insert barrel length.
14, .30 luger, 95mm, 135mm.
6, .30 luger, 120mm, 160mm.
29, .30 luger, 145mm, 185mm.
31, .30 luger, 200mm, 240mm.
15, 9x19, 100mm, 160mm.
36, 9x19, 120mm, 180mm
27, 9x19, 150mm, 200mm.
16, 202mm, 240mm.

klaus 3338 · 09-02-2009, 03:12 PM

Weissbrot, nice, nice, very nice. I wish it would be mine! I still have 12 different conversion units in 4mm and picked on one day from a local gunsmith more than 60 units in 4mm but I never saw one like yours before and I know only of two others of them here in Geramny. Really great stuff. Thanks for showing.

weissbrot1 · 09-02-2009, 08:21 PM

klaus, you are welcome. Thanks to all for their information and enlightenment on a very interesting piece of history. i just wish that information for a bayonet was as available. I think one of the bayonets i have was used in the american revolution by one of my ancestors. He was a Hessian and fought on the wrong side. after the war he remained in america. even the expert? at the quartermaster meuseum in 1964 was unable to furnish any info. thanks again to all. it is good to have somewhere to go to find such a knowledgable group. jerry

sheepherder · 11-26-2014, 09:41 PM

Bump!

Now that it's ~5 years later and I've seen [pics] of other sub caliber inserts, I can see this one is very different.

Edward Tinker · 11-26-2014, 10:32 PM

Rich, somewhere my friend Russ had a luger that the 9mm parts were gone but a 22 unit was attached. Will have to do a search and see what kind of attachment it is.

I could collect these accessories.

08-26-2009, 01:50 AM	#1
weissbrot1 User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	sub caliber insert when dad brought back a 1916 luger in 1945, there was an insert with it that appeared to fit into the barrel and lock on the front sight. this piece is composed of a 4 inch tube that fits into the barrel( 22 or 25 caliber?) there is a collar that locks onto the front sight and behind that is two knurled? bands~3/4 inches and a third band `1/2 IN FOLLOWED BY A SMOOTH BAND AND THEN A 1/2 INCH BAND. i KNOW THIS IS NOT A VERY GOOD DESCRIPTION, BUT ANY INFO WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. dAD SAID HE THOUGHT IT MAY HAVE BEEN USED FOR EXECUTIONS , BUT WAS NOT SURE. the pistol was captured iin bavaria. Thanks for your help. Jerry

08-26-2009, 02:25 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,119 Thanked 5,286 Times in 1,728 Posts	The insert your dad brought back was not used for anything as sinister as executions. It is a 4mm single-shot conversion used for indoor target practice. It used an inexpensive low-powered round that would probably break the skin but wouldn't penetrate to a depth to be lethal (unless a really freaky accident happened, and I certainly would not want to be shot with one!). From your description the unit was almost certainly of the type manufactured by Rheinisch-Westfalische Sprengstoff A.G/Weiss located in Nurnberg. It was used by the Reichswehr for training. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-26-2009, 04:23 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	Jerry, I bet its the type I have, will try to shoot a picture tonight. Mine is a police and I bet your's is the same type, tehy made them for police and for military. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-31-2009, 03:37 PM	#7
weissbrot1 User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	pictures of my insert (i hope) there should be 5 pictures attached to this message. sorry about the quality of these pictures. please let me know if they came through so i know i did it right this time.

08-31-2009, 03:53 PM	#8
weissbrot1 User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	pictures take 2 DSCF0115.jpg DSCF0116.jpg DSCF0117.jpg DSCF0118.jpg DSCF0119.jpg

08-26-2009, 01:21 PM	#4
weissbrot1 User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	my insert doesn,t loook anything like yours. i will try to attach a picture if i can figure out how to do it. thanks fot the reply. jerry

09-01-2009, 01:32 PM	#10
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 524 Thanks: 0 Thanked 432 Times in 165 Posts	Edward, it is not a normal one. I found only 5 like yours in 25 years collecting. But the RWS one is really rare. I never owned one, yes, I never had one in my hand. So, some closeup photos would be nice.

09-01-2009, 04:36 PM	#11
weissbrot1 User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	new pictures I hope some of these are better. i will try my sons camera tomorrow.DSCF0140.jpg DSCF0139.jpg DSCF0136.jpg DSCF0135.jpg DSCF0134.jpg DSCF0133.jpg DSCF0130.jpg DSCF0129.jpg DSCF0128.jpg DSCF0127.jpg

08-31-2009, 07:24 PM	#12
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,208 Thanks: 1,425 Thanked 4,474 Times in 2,343 Posts	Weissbrot1 - The first pic looks OK, but you lost the focus for the other four...

08-31-2009, 08:00 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,119 Thanked 5,286 Times in 1,728 Posts	Your photos confirm that this sub-caliber conversion unit was made by Rheinisch-Westfalische Sprengstoff A.G/Weiss. See page 319 of Eugene Bender's "Luger Holsters and Accessories of the 20th Century". In the last photo it appears that there is some writing on the end of the barrel insert...can you read it? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-31-2009, 09:22 PM	#14
weissbrot1 User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	the writing on end of insert is 15 1700 as written. I have no idea when this unit was manufactured--it was shipped home in 1945 along with the pistol and two bayonets according to the paperwork filled out for shipment to the states.

09-01-2009, 02:21 AM	#15
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 524 Thanks: 0 Thanked 432 Times in 165 Posts	Weissbrot, this conversion unit is the rarest I know to exist. Some better (much better) photos would be nice. Regards Klaus

09-02-2009, 03:12 PM	#17
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 524 Thanks: 0 Thanked 432 Times in 165 Posts	Weissbrot, nice, nice, very nice. I wish it would be mine! I still have 12 different conversion units in 4mm and picked on one day from a local gunsmith more than 60 units in 4mm but I never saw one like yours before and I know only of two others of them here in Geramny. Really great stuff. Thanks for showing.

09-02-2009, 08:21 PM	#18
weissbrot1 User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	klaus, you are welcome. Thanks to all for their information and enlightenment on a very interesting piece of history. i just wish that information for a bayonet was as available. I think one of the bayonets i have was used in the american revolution by one of my ancestors. He was a Hessian and fought on the wrong side. after the war he remained in america. even the expert? at the quartermaster meuseum in 1964 was unable to furnish any info. thanks again to all. it is good to have somewhere to go to find such a knowledgable group. jerry

11-26-2014, 09:41 PM	#19
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,208 Thanks: 1,425 Thanked 4,474 Times in 2,343 Posts	Bump! Now that it's ~5 years later and I've seen [pics] of other sub caliber inserts, I can see this one is very different. __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-26-2014, 10:32 PM	#20
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	Rich, somewhere my friend Russ had a luger that the 9mm parts were gone but a 22 unit was attached. Will have to do a search and see what kind of attachment it is. I could collect these accessories.