What pouch is this?

Went Blakely · 12-15-2008, 08:38 PM

Hey all just enquiring about this for a bloke on another forum, it was among his grandfather's bring backs (two being a P38, and a smaller cal mauser) so i am guessing it may be for one of them. He thought at first it could have been for the P08 but most of the luger mag pouches i've seen look different. All i can make out is 'pistol cartridges' Any help appreciated, cheers.

The pouch is completely unmarked, the packages, with the following

pistolenpatronen 08 MM
1944 dou. 59
NZ. Stb. P. n/A (o,8 0,8) 1944
Parrh. (St)+-1944 dou
Gesch.-1944 dou.
Zdh. 08-1942 eem 56.

The only other pouch ive seen similar, was russian

lugerholsterrepair · 12-15-2008, 08:59 PM

Went, This pouch does not appear to be German. Hard to say..I don't know what it's original purpose was but you can be sure it was not to store or carry the ammunition boxes shown with it.

Jerry Burney

Went Blakely · 12-15-2008, 10:32 PM

Hey Jerry, i thought this could have been a possibility also, could it be american? Again it differs from the usual and rarely seen leather M1911 and A1 pouches, and they most likely would have been marked. Could it actually be Russian, traded, or captured then captured back? The russian one i saw that looked very similar was used as a grenade pouch apparently. Any idea what pistol the ammo packages were for?

Lugerdoc · 12-16-2008, 10:26 AM

Boxed 9mmP ammo for lugers, P38s, etc. TH

Went Blakely · 12-17-2008, 10:32 AM

Thanks Mr Heller

Least we have that out of the way. Still no takers on the pouch origin?

Vlim · 12-17-2008, 11:03 AM

pistolenpatronen 08 MM
1944 dou. 59
NZ. Stb. P. n/A (o,8 0,8) 1944
Parrh. (St)+-1944 dou
Gesch.-1944 dou.
Zdh. 08-1942 eem 56.

Translated it means:
9x19mm para rounds, with iron core (mE, rather than MM).
Lot 59, made in 1944 by Waffenwerke Brunn (former CZ in occupied Tjecho-Slowakia).
Filled with 'Stabchenpulver Neuer Art' (referring to the shape and style of the powder),
Shell casings are laquered steel (St+) and also made by the same company.
Bullets (Gesch. short for 'Geschoss') also made by the same company.
Primers (Zdh., short for Zundhutchen), made by Selve-Kronbiegel-Dornheim AG in Soemmerda, Germany in 1942.

alvin · 12-17-2008, 08:49 PM

Vlim -- I am not clear on "iron core (mE, rather than MM)".... does it mean mE being iron core, or the other way?

Could you also help to decipher "(o,8 0,8)" on the 3rd line, and "eem 56." on the last line? Thanks!

Vlim · 12-18-2008, 06:15 AM

Hi,

I'm not familiar with a phrase 'MM' on these packages, the most common ones are labeled with 'mE', which is short for iron core (result of lead shortages, an iron core was placed in the bullet tip to save lead).

eem 56 is the ordnance code (eem) and the lot code (56) for by Selve-Kronbiegel-Dornheim AG in Soemmerda.

The 0,8/0,8 refers to the size of the powder grains in millimeters.

Went Blakely · 12-18-2008, 11:54 PM

Thanks Mr Vlimmeren, thats very interesting

Vlim · 12-19-2008, 09:13 AM

Here's one we (had) prepared earlier:

Iron Core (mE 'mit Eisenkern') on the left. (with the 0.8 x 0.8mm 'new powder').
Sintered Iron (SE 'Sintereisen') on the right. (with the more granular older style powder).

Credit goes to one of our Dutch collectors who makes really wonderful sectioned rounds.

The additional photos show the mE and the SE with their boxes. The mE usually has a steel jacketed bullet, painted black. The SE is greyish, with a black sealing band around the bullet base.

12-15-2008, 08:38 PM	#1
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	What pouch is this? Hey all just enquiring about this for a bloke on another forum, it was among his grandfather's bring backs (two being a P38, and a smaller cal mauser) so i am guessing it may be for one of them. He thought at first it could have been for the P08 but most of the luger mag pouches i've seen look different. All i can make out is 'pistol cartridges' Any help appreciated, cheers. The pouch is completely unmarked, the packages, with the following pistolenpatronen 08 MM 1944 dou. 59 NZ. Stb. P. n/A (o,8 0,8) 1944 Parrh. (St)+-1944 dou Gesch.-1944 dou. Zdh. 08-1942 eem 56. The only other pouch ive seen similar, was russian __________________ Went Blakely

12-15-2008, 08:59 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Went, This pouch does not appear to be German. Hard to say..I don't know what it's original purpose was but you can be sure it was not to store or carry the ammunition boxes shown with it. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-15-2008, 10:32 PM	#3
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Hey Jerry, i thought this could have been a possibility also, could it be american? Again it differs from the usual and rarely seen leather M1911 and A1 pouches, and they most likely would have been marked. Could it actually be Russian, traded, or captured then captured back? The russian one i saw that looked very similar was used as a grenade pouch apparently. Any idea what pistol the ammo packages were for? __________________ Went Blakely

12-16-2008, 10:26 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Boxed 9mmP ammo for lugers, P38s, etc. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-17-2008, 10:32 AM	#5
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks Mr Heller Least we have that out of the way. Still no takers on the pouch origin? __________________ Went Blakely

12-17-2008, 11:03 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	pistolenpatronen 08 MM 1944 dou. 59 NZ. Stb. P. n/A (o,8 0,8) 1944 Parrh. (St)+-1944 dou Gesch.-1944 dou. Zdh. 08-1942 eem 56. Translated it means: 9x19mm para rounds, with iron core (mE, rather than MM). Lot 59, made in 1944 by Waffenwerke Brunn (former CZ in occupied Tjecho-Slowakia). Filled with 'Stabchenpulver Neuer Art' (referring to the shape and style of the powder), Shell casings are laquered steel (St+) and also made by the same company. Bullets (Gesch. short for 'Geschoss') also made by the same company. Primers (Zdh., short for Zundhutchen), made by Selve-Kronbiegel-Dornheim AG in Soemmerda, Germany in 1942.

12-17-2008, 08:49 PM	#7
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Vlim -- I am not clear on "iron core (mE, rather than MM)".... does it mean mE being iron core, or the other way? Could you also help to decipher "(o,8 0,8)" on the 3rd line, and "eem 56." on the last line? Thanks!

12-18-2008, 06:15 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, I'm not familiar with a phrase 'MM' on these packages, the most common ones are labeled with 'mE', which is short for iron core (result of lead shortages, an iron core was placed in the bullet tip to save lead). eem 56 is the ordnance code (eem) and the lot code (56) for by Selve-Kronbiegel-Dornheim AG in Soemmerda. The 0,8/0,8 refers to the size of the powder grains in millimeters.

12-18-2008, 11:54 PM	#9
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks Mr Vlimmeren, thats very interesting __________________ Went Blakely

12-19-2008, 09:13 AM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Here's one we (had) prepared earlier: Iron Core (mE 'mit Eisenkern') on the left. (with the 0.8 x 0.8mm 'new powder'). Sintered Iron (SE 'Sintereisen') on the right. (with the more granular older style powder). Credit goes to one of our Dutch collectors who makes really wonderful sectioned rounds. The additional photos show the mE and the SE with their boxes. The mE usually has a steel jacketed bullet, painted black. The SE is greyish, with a black sealing band around the bullet base. Attached Images