Russian Lugers at Phoenix Investment Arms

[sheepherder]

I noticed a long thread here (way too long to read!) about Russian Lugers, and took a look at Phoenix, and they have two up ...One a 1900 Russian, the other a 1906 Russian with Tula Arsenal proofs...

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...3Russian00.htm

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com.../827Russ06.htm

Very interesting historical Lugers, which I noticed Walter mentioned only briefly in his The Luger book...

The one listed as a 1900 Russian is in my price range; in fact, if I sell my house, I could buy two...

[drbuster]

Postino, read the last, or latest posting by Albert Beliard (Imperial Arms) on this and Jan Still's Forums. His presentation in the form of a contest in "luger naming" espouses his latest thinking, supported by our Bulgarian contingent (Pavlov), that these lugers are not Russian lugers at all but Bulgarian lugers apparently sent to a Bulgarian Infantry regiment with many Russian soldiers as part of the regiment. The theory is compelling and hard to refute, especially as to why the words stamped on the safety area and extractor are 100% Bulgarian, and not "old Russian" as the old (read former) theorists lead us to believe. If this is so, how do we explain the 1900 "Russian"? Is this rare example an outright fake, an early "Bulgarian" or "Russian" salesman's piece to garner a contract, or ?? The Tula proof on the barrel of the 1906 "Russian-Bulgarian" is explained by Albert in the text. This is fine food for discussion, stay tuned!

[sheepherder]

Hello Dr Buster -

Phoenix Investments has a pretty good history of the Russian Lugers. I spent over an hour reading up on them on their site. They kind of spread the notes around, on the different Lugers for sale, and also in their Archived Lugers section.

Lots of interesting and definitive information there!!!

[Vlim]

Lots of interesting and definitive information there!!!

A total lack of the above, you mean? Al that is claimed about the 'Russian luger' on the site is completely unproven, not backed by external sources and/or references. A bit worthless. Also take into account that PIA has a long history of being the outlet for dubious collector pieces.

[Imperial Arms]

Rich,

You probably enjoy reading fiction about Lugers as well as accepting various flawed information mentioned by PIA, so I suggest that you do some reading which may help you and save your wallet.

Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

Rich,

You probably enjoy reading fiction about Lugers...

Yes, I will get to that thread soon...Right now I am reading about Spandau Lugers and Deaths Head Lugers over at Jan Stills site...and Swedish & Finnish Lahti's at WarRelics.eu... Much interesting stuff being presented there...

Still puzzled about why a railroad - whether in Germany, Finland, or Sweden - would need sidearms...Did the British railroad also carry sidearms??? Why would any of them???

[sheepherder]

Land of Borchardt has a page devoted to the Russian Lugers...Even listing verified serial numbers...

http://www.landofborchardt.com/other.html

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by postino

Land of Borchardt has a page devoted to the Russian Lugers...Even listing verified serial numbers...

http://www.landofborchardt.com/other.html

Rich,

Give me a break (from LOB)! - "Even listing verified serial numbers...". Are you also going to mention that the M1900 Mexican Army contract Lugers are 'verfied'? You have obviously not carefully read my first article about the 'Russian Lugers'. I suggest you read my two articles on the same topic and gain some 'universal' knowledge before you go out to do any 'shopping' and make a serious mistake.

The web site "Land of Borchardt" should be changed to the "Land of Bull****" as a result of the many errors it contains!

Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

I suggest you read my two articles...

Albert -

Actually, I was just over at your site looking at your collection of Interesting Firearms (including the cased Bolo w/stock that Alvin lusts after! )...but except for a single picture of each, there is no description or story behind each example...

Do you have anecdotes about each of these??? Like many here, I enjoy the stories (or history) behind an unusual pistol...

[Don M]

Originally Posted by postino

Still puzzled about why a railroad - whether in Germany, Finland, or Sweden - would need sidearms...Did the British railroad also carry sidearms??? Why would any of them???

A bit of the history of the German Railway Police may be found in Chapter 19 of History Writ in Steel. Germany still has an armed Bahnschutz.

[drbuster]

Postino, in the past, when mail was carried by the railroads (at least in America), train workers routinely carried side arms, usually Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers to protect themselves, and the mail which may have contained currency, etc. In the lore of the Old West, the James brothers were notorious for robbing trains. I'm sure that their example caught on with the European railroads as well. Having armed train workers was thus not unusual, especially in the era of steam locomotives (prior to 1950).

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by drbuster

Postino, in the past, when mail was carried by the railroads (at least in America), train workers routinely carried side arms, usually Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers to protect themselves, and the mail which may have contained currency, etc. In the lore of the Old West, the James brothers were notorious for robbing trains. I'm sure that their example caught on with the European railroads as well. Having armed train workers was thus not unusual, especially in the era of steam locomotives (prior to 1950).

And the US was/is much less dependent on the railroads than say Europe...and yet the exploits of US bandits is more popularized than Europeans...but this is 1900-on that these weapons were being issued (or sold) to railroads...Lugers, Lahtis, whatever else...You would think that there would be more known about the threat (perceived or real) that these weapons were supposed to counter...Were there famous European train robbers???

When I was young, back in the late 50's, our primary school class went on a "field trip" to the local Federal Reserve Bank in Buffalo, NY...I recall that they had a floor rack of submachine guns for defense...all Reisings...with 20 rd mags...Another strange instance of arming an institution...

[cirelaw]

Where would our site be with Good O'le Albert??

[Ron Wood]

Did I see the word "brag" in there somewhere?

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Ron,

I am not deliberately 'bragging' when I mention the size/contents of my archive, and I am not 'broadcasting' it over the Internet (through a web site with all that flash animation and pop-up dialogue boxes as used by LOB).

LOB has sometimes referred to certain plain/general artwork in his literature to support his claims/theories which are not exactly true. For example, a piece of artwork which has appeared in early literature showing a Tangent Sight Luger (with a push-button) is often described as a Navy Luger in dealer catalogs. In regards to Mauser literature, the use of a 'Step-Barrel' Cone Hammer is actually representing a Standard Cone Hammer or whatever type of C96 pistol was available in stock at the time.

Albert

[Edward Tinker]

I know you have been talking about LOB, which I hold the same opinion, although I do not know the website owner. It has pretty guns, but not always accuarate information.

And I mean no offense, but I find it odd that you display guns with no information? I simply do not understand the reasoning there? Saying, well, if folks want to know more they should ask, is a bit; well weird.

Why display them

I mean they are very rare guns aren't they? So display them and teach at the same time is my feeling? But its your website and you can do as you want.

I will re-read the thread / informational article you wrote on the russian lugers and see if I simply read it too fast and missed something.


Ed

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I know you have been talking about LOB, which I hold the same opinion, although I do not know the website owner. It has pretty guns, but not always accuarate information.

The owner of LOB is Charles Whittacker who is a loyal believer and supporter of Geoff Sturgess, who (GS) wants to be recognized as the 'Pope'.
Ed

"And I mean no offense, but I find it odd that you display guns with no information? I simply do not understand the reasoning there? Saying, well, if folks want to know more they should ask, is a bit; well weird."

For example, it the past 10 years, I have only received three questions about my Cartridge Counter, of which two questions have been "is it for sale?". Although I am flattered by such a question, why should I write something about these pistols on my web site when I shall not receive any intelligent questions?

"Why display them"

I created my web site in early 2001 and I did not have the time to continously update it with new material while gathering information for my book project on the Mauser C96. Displaying such guns gives collectors the idea of what is still surviving and what items might still be discovered.

"I mean they are very rare guns aren't they? So display them and teach at the same time is my feeling? But its your website and you can do as you want."

I agree that it is important to educate new and seasoned collectors, but I cannot juggle many things at the same time. I shall bear it in mind to update my web site in the near future. In the next update of my web site (or I shall add it instead to the forums), I shall show you fellows the finest and most complete genuine M1917 LP-08 rig - it will make you cry! I need to bring everything together and I still have the parts in different countries.

"I will re-read the thread / informational article you wrote on the russian lugers and see if I simply read it too fast and missed something."

That would be a good idea - chew before you swallow!

I enjoy participating on the forums which have lead me a few times to some great stuff, and I shall continue to share my knowledge with other collectors who share the same energy as me.

Cheers,
Albert

[cirelaw]

I figure it this way, Hes always entertaining and like television, you can always change channels.

[Vlim]

I have to disagree with your interpretation that my European nationality (German) has nothing to do with a better understanding about Lugers.

Albert, I remember reading somewhere that you were not able to read or speak German well?

Ah, found your reference.

I wish that my German language was better, but even with my limited German, I am learning everyday what the Germans stood for during the imperial era and I am also proud of this quality.

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Vlim

Albert, I remember reading somewhere that you were not able to read or speak German well?

Ah, found your reference.

Hello Vlim,

You are correct that I do not read or speak German (very little), however, some of my fellow collectors in Europe have been very helpful to me providing translations and other valuable information.

My parents raised me with English while we were living in Africa in some French speaking countries. My French is modest to good and I wish that I could have learned German.

Albert