Navy ID Help...

Pete Ebbink · 11-01-2003, 02:25 PM

A LF member asked for my help in posting some photos of his Navy. Sorry the resolution and clarity of the photos is not the best, but this is all I could get to post.

This gun does have the large toggle pin flange...

The LF Member would appreciate any help with the ID of the unique marking and other opinions...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Strider · 11-03-2003, 02:20 PM

I just noticed something on the toggle assembly between this Navy and the one that was posted by Doubs. They both have the number 100 stamped on them yet one is dated 1916 and the other 1917. Am I missing something or was this a standard number that was stamped at this location? Do any of the members that have Navy's from the same time era have this same number stamped on the toggle assembly? Thanks.
Sid.

tracyp · 11-03-2003, 02:33 PM

The 100 on the toggle means the sight is set for 100 meters. If you pull the sight back 200 will show, meaning the sight is set 200 meters.

Navy · 11-03-2003, 02:45 PM

The Navy depicted is one of a small lot that is virtually unknown to the average collector. It is a part of the contract for the short-lived secessionist Republic of Hawaii Navy. The marking is their crest, a pineapple.

And if you believe that, I know of some special Geschwader General Goering Luftwaffe pieces that were plated to keep moisture condensation at altitude from causing corrosion. <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" />

Tom A.

Strider · 11-03-2003, 02:45 PM

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I have not had the chance to check out a Navy before and that really had me wondering. I will blame it on it being Monday. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> Thanks again.
Sid.

Pete Ebbink · 11-03-2003, 06:42 PM

Hello Tom A.,

I heard from the gun's owner that Bob Simspon recently saw this Navy in person and Bob speculated the "flaming bomb" stamping(s) might be Belgian...

Though, I thought the pineapple bit was funny...!

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Doubs · 11-03-2003, 08:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pete Ebbink:
Hello Tom A.,
I heard from the gun's owner that Bob Simspon recently saw this Navy in person and Bob speculated the "flaming bomb" stamping(s) might be Belgian... Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>That was my first thought also.... Belgian.

Doubs

Pete Ebbink · 11-03-2003, 09:08 PM

Hello Walker,

Sam Costanzo shows some Belgian proofs in his WOL book on page 218. Might proof # 216D on page 218 be the stamp we are seeing on this Navy luger ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Navy · 11-03-2003, 09:38 PM

All,

The problem with identifying this, IMHO, is that we are dealing with a "secondary" proof...these are markings that were applied to captured/requisitioned arms that were intended to be issued as substitutes for military standard issue. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

This is a field that is extremely esoteric and very little exists in secondary sources (books), as this kind of research is highly specialized and requires years of research in foreign language archives to accomplish.

Wish I had the resources to devote the rest of my time on earth to doing and documenting this; it is going to be a lifetime work for someone. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Tom A

Doubs · 11-03-2003, 11:12 PM

Pete, that's the proof I had in mind. It appears on several Belgian guns I own.

Tom, if I win the lottery I think I'll do exactly what you suggest. (If my wife lets me, that is!)

Walker (Doubs)

Lugerdoc · 11-04-2003, 08:43 AM

Pete, As you said, it's very hard to see any detail of the proofs in your photos above. If the letter in the circle is an "L" with "flames" above, I agree that it's a Belgian Liege proof. If in fact, the letters inside the circle are "BV" or "BP" with crown above, it's probaby a British Birmingham proof house mark. If so, I would bet that some where on the Navy, your will also find in very small letters "not english made". Tom

Ron Wood · 11-04-2003, 10:04 AM

I had that gun in hand at Tulsa, and my impression at the time was that the letter inside the circle was "L". I didn't see any British markings or "not English made", but I didn't spend a lot of time looking it over carefully. My inclination was Belgian, but I have never seen a Belgian proof that large on a handgun. Could it be a rifle or machinegun proof die used to mark this Luger?

Heinz · 11-04-2003, 08:07 PM

This pistol seems to have stray marks all over it. What is the 24 ct on the reciever below the sear bar? This looks like a long sear bar. Is that appropriate for a 1918 Navy?

I gather you passed on this one Ron?

regards, heinz

11-01-2003, 02:25 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Navy ID Help... A LF member asked for my help in posting some photos of his Navy. Sorry the resolution and clarity of the photos is not the best, but this is all I could get to post. This gun does have the large toggle pin flange... The LF Member would appreciate any help with the ID of the unique marking and other opinions... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-03-2003, 02:20 PM	#2
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just noticed something on the toggle assembly between this Navy and the one that was posted by Doubs. They both have the number 100 stamped on them yet one is dated 1916 and the other 1917. Am I missing something or was this a standard number that was stamped at this location? Do any of the members that have Navy's from the same time era have this same number stamped on the toggle assembly? Thanks. Sid. __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

11-03-2003, 02:45 PM	#5
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for clearing that up for me. I have not had the chance to check out a Navy before and that really had me wondering. I will blame it on it being Monday. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> Thanks again. Sid. __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

11-03-2003, 08:41 PM	#7
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete Ebbink: <strong>Hello Tom A., I heard from the gun's owner that Bob Simspon recently saw this Navy in person and Bob speculated the "flaming bomb" stamping(s) might be Belgian... Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">That was my first thought also.... Belgian. Doubs

11-04-2003, 08:43 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Pete, As you said, it's very hard to see any detail of the proofs in your photos above. If the letter in the circle is an "L" with "flames" above, I agree that it's a Belgian Liege proof. If in fact, the letters inside the circle are "BV" or "BP" with crown above, it's probaby a British Birmingham proof house mark. If so, I would bet that some where on the Navy, your will also find in very small letters "not english made". Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-03-2003, 02:33 PM	#3
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	The 100 on the toggle means the sight is set for 100 meters. If you pull the sight back 200 will show, meaning the sight is set 200 meters.

11-03-2003, 02:45 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The Navy depicted is one of a small lot that is virtually unknown to the average collector. It is a part of the contract for the short-lived secessionist Republic of Hawaii Navy. The marking is their crest, a pineapple. And if you believe that, I know of some special Geschwader General Goering Luftwaffe pieces that were plated to keep moisture condensation at altitude from causing corrosion. <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" /> Tom A.

11-03-2003, 06:42 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Tom A., I heard from the gun's owner that Bob Simspon recently saw this Navy in person and Bob speculated the "flaming bomb" stamping(s) might be Belgian... Though, I thought the pineapple bit was funny...! Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-03-2003, 09:08 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Walker, Sam Costanzo shows some Belgian proofs in his WOL book on page 218. Might proof # 216D on page 218 be the stamp we are seeing on this Navy luger ? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-03-2003, 09:38 PM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, The problem with identifying this, IMHO, is that we are dealing with a "secondary" proof...these are markings that were applied to captured/requisitioned arms that were intended to be issued as substitutes for military standard issue. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> This is a field that is extremely esoteric and very little exists in secondary sources (books), as this kind of research is highly specialized and requires years of research in foreign language archives to accomplish. Wish I had the resources to devote the rest of my time on earth to doing and documenting this; it is going to be a lifetime work for someone. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> Tom A

11-03-2003, 11:12 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	Pete, that's the proof I had in mind. It appears on several Belgian guns I own. Tom, if I win the lottery I think I'll do exactly what you suggest. (If my wife lets me, that is!) Walker (Doubs)

11-04-2003, 10:04 AM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I had that gun in hand at Tulsa, and my impression at the time was that the letter inside the circle was "L". I didn't see any British markings or "not English made", but I didn't spend a lot of time looking it over carefully. My inclination was Belgian, but I have never seen a Belgian proof that large on a handgun. Could it be a rifle or machinegun proof die used to mark this Luger? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-04-2003, 08:07 PM	#13
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	This pistol seems to have stray marks all over it. What is the 24 ct on the reciever below the sear bar? This looks like a long sear bar. Is that appropriate for a 1918 Navy? I gather you passed on this one Ron? regards, heinz