Info Needed

Marvin · 03-19-2006, 06:37 AM

Well guys, the questions are coming and I need some help. I am talking to a guy with a Weimar Police Luger and I can't find much about it. He says that it is the same as in "World of Lugers, Costanzo, pg. 220". This pistol is supposed to be a Security Service pistol. I thought the S.D.I. stamp was for the Schutzpolizie, Dusseldorf.

I am supposed to call back tomorrow, and help from someone to look up this page in World of Lugers and provide some detail? Darn, one Luger book I don't have!

Edit - I did a little searching and found a posting by my friend Tom A. from 08/04 that the S.D. was for "Schupo Dusseldorf". Tom stated that this was a Security force during the Weimar Era, but they were the standard Municipal Polce. Is this correct?

What this Luger sounds like to me is a standard reworked WWI Luger for the Police in Dusseldorf with no "special" provinance.

Lugerdoc · 03-19-2006, 10:14 AM

Marvin, I agree with you. Years ago there was a big disagreement in Automag over a similar Police PO8 grip strapped marked S.D.IV.xxx that Ralph S. had advertised as SS. TH

policeluger · 03-19-2006, 10:18 AM

You are correct in that last sentence, S.D. is a standard Dufsseldorf police despite attempts by some dealers to made it a special police force or more.

Herb · 03-19-2006, 12:50 PM

Costanzo, pg 220 indicates that the S.D.1 thru S.D.7 (all roman numerals) represents the Sicherheitsdienst, the security service having control over all police forces. This mark is usually found on reworked WW1 lugers and a few on 1938 and 1939 models. This is what he is referring to.

Marvin · 03-19-2006, 01:25 PM

Thanks guys for the help. I knew I did not know enough about this to go on my own. I really like the pistol and the Weimar era is a favorite of mine, so I will talk to the person about buying the pistol. I will try to talk to him tomorrow and see what kind of a deal I can make. If I get it, I will let you know, if not, I will also let you know.

Your help is appreciated. As with a lot of Lugers, there are things we just can't prove. It would be nice to know the truth, but we are still working on the "KU" Lugers too, LOL. I will keep you posted!

Edward Tinker · 03-19-2006, 03:16 PM

I think Costanzo is wrong here, newer info states it is just a police marking....

Ed

GerColctor · 03-19-2006, 04:22 PM

The police unit mark: S.D. with Roman numeral, then inventory numbers is for the Dusseldorf Police, not Gestapo, or the SD.

I have a Model 1914 Mauser, a police Luger [1920] and a uniform police officer's Seitengewehr [bayonet], all unit marked S.D. X.xx.

Dusselorf was and is a very large metro area, with a large police force. This marking has, as mentioned above, been bastardized by some "big" dealers to make it into something that it was not, in order to inflate the price.

At a resent gun show, I overheard the dealer at his table attempting to convince a young man who was interesting in buying one of his pistols, that this particular Luger was issued to the "famous" SD. The dealer stated that due to that grip marking, he had to get a "lot" of money for it.
Joe

Schupo · 03-19-2006, 06:24 PM

Marvin,

Costanzo is wrong. It is quite clear that the S.D.I.# marking you describe indicates the Schutzpolizei DÃ?Â¼sseldorf according to both the 1922 and the 1932 Prussian Police marking regulations. The "I" is the Roman numeral designation for the 1st DÃ?Â¼sseldorf precinct or area. The Schutzpolizei are the regular uniformed police and have nothing to do with the Sicherheitsdienst. Ascribing this marking to the Sicherheitsdienst is simply incorrect or an attempt to boost the price.

Marvin · 03-20-2006, 07:27 AM

Again guys, I appreciate the answers very much! The person told me it was the "secret police" stamp, but even being away from Lugers for several years, I felt this was wrong. Since I don't have Costanzo's book, I could not verify what he was talking about. The price for the pistol is $900 and is is supposed to be in 95% condition. If he still has it, I will probably buy it since I don't have any Dusseldorf Police pistols.

The story never changes about Lugers, anyone will try to boost the price to make a sale. IT sure is good to be back with you guys, and to LUGERS!!!!

Update: OK, I am now "back in the fold". I have the Luger on hold until I get my license faxed to him this evening. The other good part is the magazine matches, AND there is a matching holster. Unfortunantly, the spare mag is not with it, or a loading tool, but this is OK. I think I made a decent deal for my first buy on a Luger in about 2+ years.

I still like the WWII Mausers, but I do have a number of these and my next favorites are the Weimar Police Lugers. WOW, what a history these have! Served in WWI, Weimar Era, and into the the Third Reich Era! If only they could talk, LOL.

Gotta save up and find me a nice Kreighoff one of these days. I do have one Keighoff, that John D. and I discussed several years ago. It is one of the "parts" Kreighoffs that was assembled from whatever parts were in the factory when the US got to the plant. It is the ugliest Luger you have ever seen, and that's the truth. I need to dig this one out and post some photos of the "beauty". Maybe this weekend I can make some photos of my Lugers for you guys since I have a digital camera now.

Marvin · 03-21-2006, 07:37 AM

A new updateon the Weimar Luger.......deal fell thru! He dicided that the price was too low and said he would keep it. What a bummer; I liked the pistol, but there are many others out there.

I did find a nice 96%, 1941 Black Widow (I hate to use that name) from a dealer I used to buy pistols from. I have one other 1942 Black Widow and this shold make a nice addition to the WWII section of Lugers. This one is all matching and correct with an excellent bore. I should receive it end of the week or Monday at the latest. I will keep you informaed when it arrives

Don M · 03-22-2006, 10:49 AM

Marvin,

I'm sorry to hear the deal fell through. The seller is either deluded or is trying to delude others.

I collect data and research Weimar police unit marks and would appreciate knowing additional information about this pistol if you know it: full unit mark including all periods & numbers; chamber date, if any; toggle logo; serial number & letter suffix; presence or evidence of sear or mag safeties. Thanks very much for any data you can provide.

Ron Smith · 03-22-2006, 11:02 AM

Hi Marvin,

Weimar Reichswehr "unit mark nut" here.

Did he say how much that he would take for it? I'm not interested in it, just wondering what he decided the value should be?

A photo of a 1914 Mauser grip strap with two X'd out DÃ?Â¼sseldorf Schupo marks.

Ron

Edward Tinker · 03-22-2006, 11:12 AM

he agreed on $900, then went on the net and saw prices at Simpson's

Ed

policeluger · 03-22-2006, 11:36 AM

Have you seen the prices of thier Makarov's.....am I missing something here??....and the 1908 at $4,600 has got me re-thinking my collections value

Edward Tinker · 03-22-2006, 11:45 AM

only if they sell...

I am sure my prices on the two I put up look high, but they are some of my better, nicer pieces...

Ed

Marvin · 03-22-2006, 03:27 PM

Thanks Guys, i am a Weimar Luger Nut too....for some reason, they just have an appeal that is great. I guess it may the long history they have. I will try to contact the guy and see if he will provide the information; no promises, but I will try. I don't know how he decided he wanted more $$$$$, but I was not going to be "hijacked"!

I have a nice 96% 1941 with Black Phenolic grips (I hate Black Widow name) coming and should arrive Saturday if the mail runs good. I HAD to get something, since I have not bought a Luger in 2.5 years!!!!!

03-19-2006, 06:37 AM	#1
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Info Needed Well guys, the questions are coming and I need some help. I am talking to a guy with a Weimar Police Luger and I can't find much about it. He says that it is the same as in "World of Lugers, Costanzo, pg. 220". This pistol is supposed to be a Security Service pistol. I thought the S.D.I. stamp was for the Schutzpolizie, Dusseldorf. I am supposed to call back tomorrow, and help from someone to look up this page in World of Lugers and provide some detail? Darn, one Luger book I don't have! Edit - I did a little searching and found a posting by my friend Tom A. from 08/04 that the S.D. was for "Schupo Dusseldorf". Tom stated that this was a Security force during the Weimar Era, but they were the standard Municipal Polce. Is this correct? What this Luger sounds like to me is a standard reworked WWI Luger for the Police in Dusseldorf with no "special" provinance.

03-19-2006, 10:14 AM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Marvin, I agree with you. Years ago there was a big disagreement in Automag over a similar Police PO8 grip strapped marked S.D.IV.xxx that Ralph S. had advertised as SS. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-19-2006, 12:50 PM	#4
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Costanzo, pg 220 indicates that the S.D.1 thru S.D.7 (all roman numerals) represents the Sicherheitsdienst, the security service having control over all police forces. This mark is usually found on reworked WW1 lugers and a few on 1938 and 1939 models. This is what he is referring to. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

03-19-2006, 03:16 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	I think Costanzo is wrong here, newer info states it is just a police marking.... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-19-2006, 04:22 PM	#7
GerColctor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: CT & FL Posts: 318 Thanks: 3 Thanked 53 Times in 33 Posts	The police unit mark: S.D. with Roman numeral, then inventory numbers is for the Dusseldorf Police, not Gestapo, or the SD. I have a Model 1914 Mauser, a police Luger [1920] and a uniform police officer's Seitengewehr [bayonet], all unit marked S.D. X.xx. Dusselorf was and is a very large metro area, with a large police force. This marking has, as mentioned above, been bastardized by some "big" dealers to make it into something that it was not, in order to inflate the price. At a resent gun show, I overheard the dealer at his table attempting to convince a young man who was interesting in buying one of his pistols, that this particular Luger was issued to the "famous" SD. The dealer stated that due to that grip marking, he had to get a "lot" of money for it. Joe __________________ It is better to have lived a day as a tiger, then a thousand years as a lamb.

03-19-2006, 10:18 AM	#3
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	You are correct in that last sentence, S.D. is a standard Dufsseldorf police despite attempts by some dealers to made it a special police force or more.

03-19-2006, 01:25 PM	#5
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks guys for the help. I knew I did not know enough about this to go on my own. I really like the pistol and the Weimar era is a favorite of mine, so I will talk to the person about buying the pistol. I will try to talk to him tomorrow and see what kind of a deal I can make. If I get it, I will let you know, if not, I will also let you know. Your help is appreciated. As with a lot of Lugers, there are things we just can't prove. It would be nice to know the truth, but we are still working on the "KU" Lugers too, LOL. I will keep you posted!

03-19-2006, 06:24 PM	#8
Schupo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kansas City Metro Posts: 206 Thanks: 1 Thanked 102 Times in 47 Posts	Marvin, Costanzo is wrong. It is quite clear that the S.D.I.# marking you describe indicates the Schutzpolizei DÃ?Â¼sseldorf according to both the 1922 and the 1932 Prussian Police marking regulations. The "I" is the Roman numeral designation for the 1st DÃ?Â¼sseldorf precinct or area. The Schutzpolizei are the regular uniformed police and have nothing to do with the Sicherheitsdienst. Ascribing this marking to the Sicherheitsdienst is simply incorrect or an attempt to boost the price. __________________ "You can't please everyone, so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

03-20-2006, 07:27 AM	#9
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Again guys, I appreciate the answers very much! The person told me it was the "secret police" stamp, but even being away from Lugers for several years, I felt this was wrong. Since I don't have Costanzo's book, I could not verify what he was talking about. The price for the pistol is $900 and is is supposed to be in 95% condition. If he still has it, I will probably buy it since I don't have any Dusseldorf Police pistols. The story never changes about Lugers, anyone will try to boost the price to make a sale. IT sure is good to be back with you guys, and to LUGERS!!!! Update: OK, I am now "back in the fold". I have the Luger on hold until I get my license faxed to him this evening. The other good part is the magazine matches, AND there is a matching holster. Unfortunantly, the spare mag is not with it, or a loading tool, but this is OK. I think I made a decent deal for my first buy on a Luger in about 2+ years. I still like the WWII Mausers, but I do have a number of these and my next favorites are the Weimar Police Lugers. WOW, what a history these have! Served in WWI, Weimar Era, and into the the Third Reich Era! If only they could talk, LOL. Gotta save up and find me a nice Kreighoff one of these days. I do have one Keighoff, that John D. and I discussed several years ago. It is one of the "parts" Kreighoffs that was assembled from whatever parts were in the factory when the US got to the plant. It is the ugliest Luger you have ever seen, and that's the truth. I need to dig this one out and post some photos of the "beauty". Maybe this weekend I can make some photos of my Lugers for you guys since I have a digital camera now.

03-21-2006, 07:37 AM	#10
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A new updateon the Weimar Luger.......deal fell thru! He dicided that the price was too low and said he would keep it. What a bummer; I liked the pistol, but there are many others out there. I did find a nice 96%, 1941 Black Widow (I hate to use that name) from a dealer I used to buy pistols from. I have one other 1942 Black Widow and this shold make a nice addition to the WWII section of Lugers. This one is all matching and correct with an excellent bore. I should receive it end of the week or Monday at the latest. I will keep you informaed when it arrives

03-22-2006, 10:49 AM	#11
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Marvin, I'm sorry to hear the deal fell through. The seller is either deluded or is trying to delude others. I collect data and research Weimar police unit marks and would appreciate knowing additional information about this pistol if you know it: full unit mark including all periods & numbers; chamber date, if any; toggle logo; serial number & letter suffix; presence or evidence of sear or mag safeties. Thanks very much for any data you can provide. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

03-22-2006, 11:02 AM	#12
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Marvin, Weimar Reichswehr "unit mark nut" here. Did he say how much that he would take for it? I'm not interested in it, just wondering what he decided the value should be? A photo of a 1914 Mauser grip strap with two X'd out DÃ?Â¼sseldorf Schupo marks. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-22-2006, 11:12 AM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	he agreed on $900, then went on the net and saw prices at Simpson's Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-22-2006, 11:36 AM	#14
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Have you seen the prices of thier Makarov's.....am I missing something here??....and the 1908 at $4,600 has got me re-thinking my collections value

03-22-2006, 11:45 AM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	only if they sell... I am sure my prices on the two I put up look high, but they are some of my better, nicer pieces... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-22-2006, 03:27 PM	#16
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Guys, i am a Weimar Luger Nut too....for some reason, they just have an appeal that is great. I guess it may the long history they have. I will try to contact the guy and see if he will provide the information; no promises, but I will try. I don't know how he decided he wanted more $$$$$, but I was not going to be "hijacked"! I have a nice 96% 1941 with Black Phenolic grips (I hate Black Widow name) coming and should arrive Saturday if the mail runs good. I HAD to get something, since I have not bought a Luger in 2.5 years!!!!!