Phosphate Finish??

Herb · 11-06-2003, 04:17 PM

While visiting another forum I saw a picture that was posted by a P38 owner of a pistol that was half blued half phosphate finished, which I gather was not all that uncommon for a P38. I have a Mauser 1939/42 ser# 3786v that, to me, appeares to look the same. I wouldn't know what a phosphate finish looked like having never seen one. It, the finish, certainly does not look like blueing though. Does anyone know if this phosphate finish was ever tried on a Luger? I hope the picture shows it clearly
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/phosphate.jpg

Lonnie Zimmerman · 11-06-2003, 04:21 PM

Herb; that looks like patina to me. It does look neat.
Lonnie

G.T. · 11-06-2003, 04:26 PM

Hi Herb! 1939 Mauser P.08 were very common with that tu-tone finish, but it was a poor blue (turned plum) receiver that creates the effect! I can't remember seeing one (39 date) that was any different?? But, I haven't paid that much attention to that variation over the years... till...later....GT

saxman · 11-06-2003, 04:27 PM

Phosphate finishes are varying shades of gray to nearly black, and tend to become gray-green with age. If you've ever seen a WWII 1911A1 or M1 Carbine, those are phosphate finishes, also known by the trade name of 'Parkerize'. The picture you posted does not appear to be a phosphate finish on the upper receiver, although it does somewhat resemble a phosphated finish that is completely worn away. It actually looks more like a part that was left 'in the white' that has picked up a brown patina over the years. It's of course possible that the upper was phosphated, perhaps as an experiment on more 'military' finishes for the Luger. I know I have read here of phosphated Lugers, but they were all completely done.
If I had waited and read G.T.'s post, I would have shut up, as I think he has it nailed.

Pete Ebbink · 11-06-2003, 04:42 PM

Bob Adams has a 1943 Mauser-Portuguese luger for sale. Their M43's had a parkerized finish...

Here is a link to the gun he has for sale :

http://www.adamsguns.com/925.jpg

I had a chance to see this gun at the recent Las vegas gun show...nice gun...but one needs to get used to the parkerized finish...

I wonder this this finish proved to be more or less durable that the salt blue finish from Mauser...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Frank · 11-06-2003, 05:07 PM

Hi Pete,

Just curious, but I hope you made a typo. It's most probably a byf 42, made in 1942.

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

John Sabato · 11-06-2003, 05:07 PM

Pete, I think the answer to this question about durability is answered by the fact that the U.S. government arsenals stopped bluing and started "parkerizing" military firearms a LOOOONNGG time ago..

Herb · 11-06-2003, 06:05 PM

Thanks for your input. So phosphate finish =Parkerizing, I am very familiar with that finish and this doesn't look like it, too light. If this is a poorly done original blueing job how would one rate the amount of blueing remaining? Does complete poorly done blue count toward the total or would it be subtracted?

Ron Wood · 11-06-2003, 06:24 PM

Frank,
You and Pete are both right. The Luger that Bob Adams has for sale is one of the lot of 1942 byf 42 Lugers that was sold under contract to Portugal in 1943. The Portuguese model designation is Mo.943 and the Lugers were given the phosphate finish by Portugal.

G.T. · 11-06-2003, 06:28 PM

Hi Herb! I think you can rate it same as blue, faded plum is like faded blue, it may be all there, but if it's not rich and deep...it shows some use, or at the least exposure... I have seen some plum recievers that were bright plum, or red... on nice 98 to 99% guns, and they were stunning! unfortunatly, the ones I have are similar to the picture/link you posted.. this would most likely be whats for sale now, as the pretty ones are mostly tucked away! till....later....GT

Thor · 11-06-2003, 07:27 PM

Like GT said, a bluing error. Receivers and extractors, ejectors are hard parts that will show this reddish plum color occasionally. This Luger shown is pretty red everywhere. Looks like yours has some parts blued correctly and some not. The Luger shown below is a 1938. I think they are pretty cool myself.
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/PlumLuger.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/PlumLuger.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Herb · 11-06-2003, 09:10 PM

This Luger has a strange finish all over. The bore is nearly perfect, there is little holster wear on the barrel, side plate and frame rails, the reciever is that poorly blued color, even all over. The grip straps appear to have the bluing mostly worn off but looking closely it appears to be really thin as does the trigger guard but the grips are strong with the checkering still very good indicating little use. Perhaps it was put together during an air raid on Oberndorf and the bluers were not allowed to go to the air raid shelter until they finished what they were doing??? I don't think it has been messed with as all the numbers match except the rear toggle axle which has no number on it, apprently being replaced at some point.

ViggoG · 11-06-2003, 10:07 PM

Hi Guys,
Here I am back again sticking my neck out.
Could this Odd Browinish Blueing be caused by wiping over with some of the present day Instant blues that Contain Phosphoric Acid.
I have tried using various ones of these modern Instant Blues and they all have thew same charactistic of turning to a brownish looking antique appearing finish if over applied or left too long without neutralizing the chemicals.
Just a guess at a posibility.
ViggoG

Barry Briscoe · 11-06-2003, 10:49 PM

A Portuguese rebuild Mauser with the plum coloring.

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/portuguese_rebuild_mauser_41_byf_plum_top.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/portuguese_rebuild_mauser_41_byf_plum_top.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Hugh · 11-06-2003, 11:21 PM

IMHO the color could be from the bluing solution being the wrong temperature or the salts being almost depleted in the solution, or a combination of both. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

Lyn Islaub · 11-06-2003, 11:38 PM

Herb,
I've got a very pretty "plum' colored 1939 Code 42 too and it's a verified vet bring back that hasn't been fooled with. I wrote to John Martz about it a few years ago and he opined that it was due to the heat treating and bluing process likely being rushed to meet production demands. You seem to see it more with P-38's and certainly 1939 P-08's seem to exhibit it more than most other years. My 2 cents worth.
Lyn

11-06-2003, 04:17 PM	#1
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Phosphate Finish?? While visiting another forum I saw a picture that was posted by a P38 owner of a pistol that was half blued half phosphate finished, which I gather was not all that uncommon for a P38. I have a Mauser 1939/42 ser# 3786v that, to me, appeares to look the same. I wouldn't know what a phosphate finish looked like having never seen one. It, the finish, certainly does not look like blueing though. Does anyone know if this phosphate finish was ever tried on a Luger? I hope the picture shows it clearly http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/phosphate.jpg __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

11-06-2003, 04:21 PM	#2
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Herb; that looks like patina to me. It does look neat. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

11-06-2003, 04:27 PM	#4
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Phosphate finishes are varying shades of gray to nearly black, and tend to become gray-green with age. If you've ever seen a WWII 1911A1 or M1 Carbine, those are phosphate finishes, also known by the trade name of 'Parkerize'. The picture you posted does not appear to be a phosphate finish on the upper receiver, although it does somewhat resemble a phosphated finish that is completely worn away. It actually looks more like a part that was left 'in the white' that has picked up a brown patina over the years. It's of course possible that the upper was phosphated, perhaps as an experiment on more 'military' finishes for the Luger. I know I have read here of phosphated Lugers, but they were all completely done. If I had waited and read G.T.'s post, I would have shut up, as I think he has it nailed. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

11-06-2003, 05:07 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Pete, I think the answer to this question about durability is answered by the fact that the U.S. government arsenals stopped bluing and started "parkerizing" military firearms a LOOOONNGG time ago.. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-06-2003, 06:05 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks for your input. So phosphate finish =Parkerizing, I am very familiar with that finish and this doesn't look like it, too light. If this is a poorly done original blueing job how would one rate the amount of blueing remaining? Does complete poorly done blue count toward the total or would it be subtracted? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

11-06-2003, 04:26 PM	#3
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,525 Thanks: 1,321 Thanked 3,708 Times in 1,013 Posts	Hi Herb! 1939 Mauser P.08 were very common with that tu-tone finish, but it was a poor blue (turned plum) receiver that creates the effect! I can't remember seeing one (39 date) that was any different?? But, I haven't paid that much attention to that variation over the years... till...later....GT

11-06-2003, 04:42 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Bob Adams has a 1943 Mauser-Portuguese luger for sale. Their M43's had a parkerized finish... Here is a link to the gun he has for sale : http://www.adamsguns.com/925.jpg I had a chance to see this gun at the recent Las vegas gun show...nice gun...but one needs to get used to the parkerized finish... I wonder this this finish proved to be more or less durable that the salt blue finish from Mauser...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-06-2003, 05:07 PM	#6
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Pete, Just curious, but I hope you made a typo. It's most probably a byf 42, made in 1942. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

11-06-2003, 06:24 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	Frank, You and Pete are both right. The Luger that Bob Adams has for sale is one of the lot of 1942 byf 42 Lugers that was sold under contract to Portugal in 1943. The Portuguese model designation is Mo.943 and the Lugers were given the phosphate finish by Portugal. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-06-2003, 06:28 PM	#10
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,525 Thanks: 1,321 Thanked 3,708 Times in 1,013 Posts	Hi Herb! I think you can rate it same as blue, faded plum is like faded blue, it may be all there, but if it's not rich and deep...it shows some use, or at the least exposure... I have seen some plum recievers that were bright plum, or red... on nice 98 to 99% guns, and they were stunning! unfortunatly, the ones I have are similar to the picture/link you posted.. this would most likely be whats for sale now, as the pretty ones are mostly tucked away! till....later....GT

11-06-2003, 07:27 PM	#11
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Like GT said, a bluing error. Receivers and extractors, ejectors are hard parts that will show this reddish plum color occasionally. This Luger shown is pretty red everywhere. Looks like yours has some parts blued correctly and some not. The Luger shown below is a 1938. I think they are pretty cool myself. <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/PlumLuger.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/PlumLuger.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

11-06-2003, 09:10 PM	#12
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	This Luger has a strange finish all over. The bore is nearly perfect, there is little holster wear on the barrel, side plate and frame rails, the reciever is that poorly blued color, even all over. The grip straps appear to have the bluing mostly worn off but looking closely it appears to be really thin as does the trigger guard but the grips are strong with the checkering still very good indicating little use. Perhaps it was put together during an air raid on Oberndorf and the bluers were not allowed to go to the air raid shelter until they finished what they were doing??? I don't think it has been messed with as all the numbers match except the rear toggle axle which has no number on it, apprently being replaced at some point. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

11-06-2003, 10:07 PM	#13
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi Guys, Here I am back again sticking my neck out. Could this Odd Browinish Blueing be caused by wiping over with some of the present day Instant blues that Contain Phosphoric Acid. I have tried using various ones of these modern Instant Blues and they all have thew same charactistic of turning to a brownish looking antique appearing finish if over applied or left too long without neutralizing the chemicals. Just a guess at a posibility. ViggoG

11-06-2003, 10:49 PM	#14
Barry Briscoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A Portuguese rebuild Mauser with the plum coloring. <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/portuguese_rebuild_mauser_41_byf_plum_top.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/portuguese_rebuild_mauser_41_byf_plum_top.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

11-06-2003, 11:21 PM	#15
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	IMHO the color could be from the bluing solution being the wrong temperature or the salts being almost depleted in the solution, or a combination of both. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

11-06-2003, 11:38 PM	#16
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Herb, I've got a very pretty "plum' colored 1939 Code 42 too and it's a verified vet bring back that hasn't been fooled with. I wrote to John Martz about it a few years ago and he opined that it was due to the heat treating and bluing process likely being rushed to meet production demands. You seem to see it more with P-38's and certainly 1939 P-08's seem to exhibit it more than most other years. My 2 cents worth. Lyn